In this episode I talk to Tanya Brown, editor of Witch Way Magazine, host of The Witch Daily Show podcast, founder of Witch Way Publishing, and author of The Door to Witchcraft. Tanya tells us about how she created the magazine, her concern about how social media is driving information, and explains the true meaning behind the word "familiar."
https://www.witchdailyshow.com/
https://www.witchwaymag.com/
https://www.witchwaypublishing.com/
https://sipaspell.com/
instagram.com/witchwaymagazine
Tonya Brown.
Host of the Witch Daily Show, author, and editor of Witch Way Magazine
Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where we talk about witch life, witch stories, and sometimes a little witchcraft, on the full and new moon every month. In this episode, I talk to Tonya Brown, editor of Witch Way magazine, host of the Witch Daily Show podcast, founder of Witch Way Publishing, and author of The Door to Witchcraft. Tonya tells us about how she created the magazine, her concerns about how social media is driving information, and explains the true meaning behind the word familiar. Now let's get to the stories.
Kim: Hi, Tonya, welcome to the show.
Tonya: Hi, thanks for having me.
Kim: Would you please introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and what you do and where they can find you?
Tonya: Yes. So, my name is Tonya Brown. I am the editor-in-chief of Witch Way Magazine, Witch Way Publishing, and I also host a daily witch podcast called The Witch Daily Show. And yeah, that's me. That's what I do.
Kim: Actually when you first started that podcast, you took one of my stories.
Tonya: Did I?
Kim: Yeah.
Tonya: Oh my God.
Kim: I set off, yeah, because I think you said "Tell me something dumb that you've done." Or something of the equivalent.
Tonya: Witch fails. Oh I love witch fails.
Kim: And I had a cheap dollar store candle set off my, all the fire alarms in the house because I didn't know they were wired and I couldn't turn it off.
Tonya: I remember that! Yeah, flammable failures. It became a trend.
Kim: It was like 4.30 in the morning. My husband was like "Why do you exist."
Tonya: I do remember that. Oh my gosh.
Kim: Are you on Instagram or anything like that?
Tonya: Yes. So our Instagram is Witch Way Magazine. On Tik Tok, but not really. Witch Way Magazine or Witch Way Mag, probably Witch Way Magazine. So yeah, that's really it. And we do have a podcast Facebook group and a Witch Way subscriber Facebook group. That's pretty much it.
Kim: Yeah, your your magazine is basically the only one I've been subscribed to since I found it. It's like the only witch magazine that I subscribe to.
Tonya: That's so nice.
Kim: And so when you said you would be on the show, I was feeling very fancy and excited.
Tonya: Well, I'm very excited because I interview people all the time and it's fun to be on the other side of it.
Kim: Yeah, because you don't have to think.
Tonya: Yeah.
Kim: But then now I get to... I like it because I don't have to talk and you talk about everything.
Tonya: Oh yeah, and then it's fine. It's a fun little switch.
Kim: So what made you decide to start a magazine?
Tonya: Oh gosh. So it was actually really a weird experience, but I essentially had quit my job. I had been in the same kind of soul-sucking, does this hurt the world, like office job for years and I was getting all of these signs that were so hard to miss telling me to quit. And being very logical, I was like, well, you can't quit a job unless you have a job ready because that's like the rules. But I was just getting hit over the head harder and harder with these signs to quit and I did.
But I quit with no real backup, and it literally all came down to a single day where I was like "I need a job by this day or my life's going to implode." And I had like that big moment with the universe where I'm like "I have had true faith, true faith, more faith than most people who claim to have faith has had, and I need you to do your part in this. I did my part. I need you to do your part." That day everything fell into place. I got the apartment. I got the job. I got the this and the that. But in the in-between I was on a friend's couch, staying on a friend's couch because I had to get out of a bad living situation. And I'm an Aries, so I love a project, but I never intend for the project to go anywhere. So I was like, well, it would be really fun to start a magazine because I was actually working at the library and the library had magazines on everything. They had beads and cats and boats. And I was like, there was a magazine on anything. And I was like, oh, how fun would it be to have a witch magazine, literally thinking I would do one issue and I would get bored and I'd move on. And then here we are seven years later.
Kim: Holy crap.
Tonya: It's crazy. I don't know. And I really stepped into the witch world being very unaware, even though I had been a witch since I was a young teenager. So I was very familiar with witchcraft. I was very unfamiliar with the witch social world, much less the online witch social world. So I was like stepping into this world like Tarot, just like flouncing around having myself a great time, not knowing that like there's this whole world and like that was really weird and surreal.
Kim: I feel like you were coming in right when it started to, when witchcraft started to really get big, maybe a little bit before. Do you agree?
Tonya: Yeah. I think... Yeah, because you know we've seen over the years the ebbs and flows of witchcraft and popularity, and I think we had a little bit of an upward momentum in that moment. But it was nothing like what's happening now. Like it was kind of on the rise, I think, when I started, But now just like with the internet, it's so much on an upward trend it's really crazy.
Kim: Well, I'm enjoying it.
Tonya: Yeah, it's wild.
Kim: Now, what does it mean when you call yourself a witch? Tonya:
Oh, fun. So I, like everyone has such different connotations with the word, and I typically give the word any meaning anyone wants to give it because you know. Language is a living thing. For me personally I'm a witch because I practice witchcraft, because I practice spell work, because I try to create change using tools, and I also have a spiritual side to it where I try to be an agent of positivity within the universe. I do think that's how my journey started, as an adult within witchcraft, anyways. So I don't think everyone has to have all those things, but for me there was this spirituality side of it, and that meaning that when you become very aware of how the world is interconnected and how the universe works, it is impossible to unsee it and it's hard to deny the beautiful magic all around us once you tap into that. So I do think it is like this kind of mix of practice and spirituality, but how each of us define that I think is extremely personal.
Kim: I think it's interesting that you said good in the universe because I've, not always, but when I have, when I thought about it, I always say that I choose to align myself with the side I interpret as good because everybody thinks they're on the right side.
Tonya: That is true. That is true. What I mean, yeah, so when I mean good, I mean making choices that I feel are helpful. You know, even though, of course, it may not always pan out that way, but that's why I don't get too hung up when people are like, well, what if I do this spell and it doesn't, you know, when it does X, Y, and Z. And usually I say, as long as you are making choices from the purest of your intentions, you don't have to worry too much because you're trying to do the right thing.
Kim: I agree. Now, you said you've been a witch for a while. Have you always been? Do you have any family history with witchcraft?
Tonya: Oh my gosh, I was actually just talking about this to someone last night. Yeah, well, sort of. So my great aunt was Wiccan, like the OG, you know, back in the day. My family is weirdly spiritual in a lot of fascinating ways. So I had a great aunt who was a Wiccan. I had a great grandmother who had visions. I had a psychic aunt. I had family members who were a part of the 1970s San Francisco Satanist movement. So we were a very "Let's dip our toe into stuff" type of people and have been for like generations. But how we define witchcraft changes, I feel like, every few decades. So maybe some of them would have been called a witch then, but maybe not now. But I definitely think I come from a very long line of very spiritually curious people.
Kim: Do you have any stories from childhood?
Tonya: Yeah. I've always been a ghosty gal. And I've basically have seen ghosts my whole life and I think that is a big part of my personal practice Yeah, I remember my aunt has this story of like walking by my bedroom when I'm like, you know, when I was four years old and seeing me asleep. But like sitting up and reaching out towards somebody. I was an insane sleepwalker, I would have like intense conversations in my sleep. I would speak different languages in my sleep. I would, I was like unstoppable in my sleep. Yeah, like my mom has stories of just like as a five to eight year old like having to drag me around because I just like could not *laugh* she could not control me when I was asleep.
Kim: Did you know the languages you were speaking?
Tonya: Well, I don't know. So witness accounts growing up from it. So I've had so like my mom would say yeah, just like just but like not knowing like no one has been able to ever tell me. Like as a teenager I would have friends, you know It's sleepovers who would be like, "I don't know you were like speaking to the devil or something," because you know, you're a teenager and you don't know. And then like in college I would fall asleep in a common area and someone would wake me up going, "You were speaking Spanish," or something. So I tend to warn people now, like anyone I could possibly, like I don't think it's happened a lot to me as an adult, but I've warned people who I could fall asleep around. Let me just say, you know, like, I've been known to do these things. Just let me know or, you know, wake me up or whatever. Yeah, I don't know what it is. I mean, I don't know if it's inherently witchy. It could be like a neurological issue, but I don't know. I've always been ghosty. And then all of that paired with like you know, I'm a medium and spirits are a big part of my practice. Like I don't know if it's all connected, but it just would feel weird If it wasn't connected.
Kim: Okay, so so far everything's filling me with envy. I I don't necessarily want a bunch of ghosts in my business all the time, but I mean it would be interesting to maybe run across one.
Tonya: Yeah, I was talking to someone recently and I was on a friend of mine's podcast. She said, "One of the things I like about you is you talk about ghosts like it is no big deal and like you're so grounded about it." And I was like, "Yeah, because it's been going on since I was five." Like at some point it loses its excitement.
Kim: Do you have any daily practices that you'll share with us?
Tonya: Oh, so you know how there's people who are like, I really want to drink eight glasses of water a day and like that's like your adult goal. Like I have ideas for daily practices that I wish I could, uh, that I wish I could do, but not so much. When I was learning how to kind of tap into my mediumship abilities, I would do daily meditations just to learn how to work my mind. But then once I learned it, I kind of moved on. So I don't, but I should. So it's definitely don't do as I do, do as I say.
Kim: Yeah, I know that life.
Tonya: So guys, please have daily practices, but I don't have any.
Kim: Even if they're not daily, do you have any regular ones?
Tonya: Yeah, I do.
Kim: Like once a month, or whatever?
Tonya: Yes. So I used to do it in conjunction with the full moon, not because I'm necessarily a moony gal, but because it was just an easy way to remember. But I like to do this, like, it's like a four to six hour ritual. And I don't always do spell work within the ritual. Sometimes I just do the ritual to get that ritual. I call it like a high. It's not a high. It's you being in your ritual state, you know, in your...
Kim: Euphoria?
Tonya: Yeah, your euphoric state. So I'll do that once a month just to reach that state and have like just my own space, you know, and sometimes if I have anything in my life where I'm like, oh I should do a spell for that even though I'm not... I do spell work like a few times a year. I'm big like don't cry wolf type of person. So if I want to do spell work I do it at that time when I'm within the ritual, but sometimes I just do the ritual for my own kind of self-care, witchy pipes thing.
Kim: So are you not a daily magic sort of person?
Tonya: I'm not. I am not. And I feel like when I started I was. And I feel like, and that's the thing, I feel like when you start out and you're trying carve out your talents and your skills, there's a lot of stuff to try, right? A lot of stuff to figure out, a lot of stuff to try. So I was back then, but now that I like, I know what I'm good at, I know when to use it, I know when to pull it out, I know, like I, I've gotten to a point now where I feel so seasoned that I know when to do these things or when to use these things. And not that I think you can waste that energy. I like to just really, really conserve it for when I need it. But that being said, because I have been doing this for so long and it is a big part of my life, there are probably things that I do every day that just feel like a normal part of my life that are probably witchy and I just don't see it anymore.
Kim: Okay, I'm having an epiphany. Because I've been feeling guilty because I don't do things every day.
Tonya: Yeah.
Kim: Huh.
Tonya: But you know how you know though is when you're around like super, super duper normal people and you're like "Oh, I'm weird." that's how I feel. Like you know, you're... like it's it's embedded.
Kim: I'm not around anyone anymore. I don't leave my house.
Tonya: Right. I don't want to either but I do know what you mean.
Kim: Would you say that witchcraft has changed your life?
Tonya: Yeah, 100%. I feel like it gave me a purpose, even though personality-wise, I think I always would have found a purpose, because I'm just a very goal-oriented person. But yeah, it gave me, it brought me to the steps that I am now, and I can't imagine not being where I am now, if that makes sense.
Kim: Do you think it's had any negative consequences or effect?
Tonya: Big ones, no. For me, no. I do sometimes have those thoughts though, where I'm like, if I had taken all of this energy and placed it elsewhere, would that have been better? But I think we all have those thoughts throughout life.
Kim: Yes, oh my God.
Tonya: But big ways, no. No. But I will say I'm very privileged. I come from a family who, like I said, we've always been very spiritually curious for generations upon generations. So you come out as a witch and someone goes "Yep. Probably." And then like moves on. Like, you know what I mean? I did not have to deal with the family judgment. I did not have to like there's a lot I didn't have to deal with because of how I was raised and I do understand that that is an immense privilege that not everyone gets.
Kim: What would you say is your biggest motivator in your practice?
Tonya: Okay, so this is going to sound really silly because I was thinking about this last night and one of my biggest motivators is well I guess it's twofold. So there is the spirituality of witchcraft, and then there's the practice. So spiritually, I like that I feel like when I make thoughtful choices or I make choices that I feel like are in the goal of being an agent of positive movement, I feel like that does something for your Universal Credit score and I tend to be someone I tend to be someone where things just kind of work out for and Yeah, I credit that to my spiritual practice and My practical practice my actual witchcraft which for me is very spirit-based, I do sometimes see like the fictional depictions of mediums and I'm like, I need to get better at what I do because I want to be like that, you know? But I don't. I don't know where I'm getting that from. I don't want, but you know, in the moment, you know, when you're like reading a book or watching.
Kim: "Wouldn't it be cool..." that sort of thing.
Tonya: Yeah like I should put more effort into this but then like you know the urge goes away.
KIm: Then your life happens, and you're like "Maybe I don't have time for that."
Tonya: Yeah I'm like "Nah, I'm good."
Kim: What do you most want out of your practice?
Tonya: Oh this is gonna sound so cliche, but just happiness and peace. I'm at the point in my life-
Kim: *sputters* That should be everyone's answer!
Tonya: I just want peace. I just want peace. It's always been happiness, right? Because that is ideally what we all should want. And if that's not what we all want, then why? I think that is what we should all want overall. Like very, you know, generalized. But with how the world has felt the past few years, I'm really anxious for peace. Which is so cliche. I feel like if I heard myself say that at 20 I would just be like, ugh, nerd. You know? But I'm like, you don't know how things have been.
Kim: You don't know what's coming. Just you wait. 2020 is going to punch you right in the face.
Tonya: Yep. So I'll fantasize about living in the middle of nowhere and just being left alone.
Kim: It is pretty great, I'll tell you. I'm not out in the middle, but I am pretty in nowhere and it's freaking amazing. Do you ever feel like you have imposter syndrome?
Tonya: Oh gosh, yeah.
Kim: What?
Tonya: Yeah, of course! I'd be like, why do people listen to me?
Kim: *laughs* I know that one.
Tonya: I'm like, why? Why? And then, of course, I'll have those moments where I'm like, no, because you do read and you put in research and you look up primary sources. I do put in the work, but at the same time, there's always those moments where you're like, yeah, I think it's healthy to have a little bit of imposter syndrome. You should doubt yourself a little bit or else you never grow and you never strive to be a better version of yourself. But yes, I do and I do try to combat that by taking classes, learning, reading from credible people, things like that.
Kim: What would you say is your biggest struggle when it comes to witchcraft?
Tonya: So I really, really struggle with misinformation. And I struggle with that because I do put so much effort into like studying and reading and things like that. And so when I see, and because I've just kind of been in the witch world, like not socially, but just like, I said, you know, since the 90s, I've seen how information has changed, and moved, and how certain groups have facilitated misinformation, and it gets really, really frustrating. And then in the world of like social media and TikTok, like there was one meme that went viral like last Friday the 13th. And it was like, it was just like, not even witchcraft, but just how humans work. But it went insanely viral, and I was like, the people sharing this are people with bodies who know this isn't true. And so I think that's one of my biggest struggles, is knowing that it doesn't matter how much proof I put out there, how much research I cite, how much I stand on my little soapbox on my little podcast, like I will never be able to put a dent in the viralness of misinformation.
Kim: You can put a dent in it.
Tonya: I try. I try. I try so hard.
Kim: We can. We can dent it.
Tonya: I try.
Kim: And if enough of us dent it...
Tonya: Yeah, shoot.
Kim: I gotta have hope!
Tonya: Yeah. And that is one good thing about social media is as I mean, misinformation will always circulate at a much higher count than accurate information. But because of social media, because of like Tick Tock and stuff, we are getting good information circulating too, which is also really cool.
Kim: What would you say, do you have any long-term goals for your practice, but also I'm going to throw in also for your business?
Tonya: Yeah, for my practice, I do want to be like, you know, Aunt Frances and Aunt Jet from Practical Magic. I do dream of being the wise witch aunt, you know, and having my godchildren and teaching them witchcraft. That is just something I dream of one day. For my business, I do want our publishing branch to grow. We really just started it, but I think we have like nine books coming out next year. So I'm feeling pretty good about it.
Kim: Good night!
Tonya: Yeah. So books, I love books. I love being an editor because I love fact checking things, as you can probably guess. I really value you putting out like good information.
Kim: Yeah. What would you say brings you the most joy in your practice?
Tonya: Ooh, in my practice, honestly, so this is going to sound a little strange. So my family, like there was a big part of my family, especially like my, our like European side, which we just knew nothing about. Like my mom had been, um, disconnected from them for decades. So we didn't know anything about them. We didn't even really, even though I think my grandmother was like first generation, we didn't even really know which country we were from because we just had, there was such a disconnect. But there was a really cool thing that happened once it was around season of the dead. So it's like November 1st or November 2nd.
And I get this email from this woman and she says "This is gonna sound strange," she says, "but I am a part of this group in Luxembourg who studies families who left Luxembourg and went to America, and just, someone in our group had a friend in a junkyard find a family portrait and on the back it had all the names of everybody in the photo." She said the only people, so they brought it to their organization and they did research and she says "You and like [my cousin] are the only people we can find related to these people." And so we, it was really cool and so on the back of the photo it essentially says my great-grandfather's name, and it said, before he goes to America. And it was just really cool because I felt so disconnected from that side of my family.
So to have this photo travel from a junkyard in Luxembourg and get to my inbox during the season of the dead was just a very magical experience. So for me, a lot of my, and that's just one example, but for me a lot of the fulfillment I've had in my practice is the connection to my family that we like lost in life because of separations or divorces or whatever. Like so being able to kind of skip a few of the current generations and like reconnect with a family in that way has been like really cool. And because I have a little bit of magic on both sides, like I've been able to really connect with like my ancestry in a really cool way.
Kim: That is freaking cool!!
Tonya: It was really cool. And because it was like November 2nd, I was like, ah, season of the dead.
Kim: And what a funny little... from Luxembourg of all places, so tiny!
Tonya: It was so crazy. And then we had photos of my great-grandfather when he was older. So we were able to be like, yeah, that's him just younger and thinner. *laughs*
Kim: And in a junkyard, that's so wild.
Tonya: In a junkyard, a guy just found it. And so that was really cool. And then, and the lady was cool. Apparently she has a blog where she shares all her research work. So she did like two blog posts on it, and it was just super cool to read.
Kim: That's so neat.
Tonya: Yeah, it was really neat. So yeah, just being able to connect with family, especially like my European side, because I look a lot like that side of the family, but knowing nobody is weird, you know? So being able to connect to them through this like weird universal junkyard way was like really magical.
Kim: *laughs* Junkyard way.
Tonya: So yeah, but it's been cool. I feel so much more connected to my family than I felt like I ever could feel if I weren't practicing witchcraft.
Kim: What witchy thing do you geek out about?
Tonya: I love movies. So I really, really love like witch depictions in movies. And I think it's really fun and neat. And I think it's cool to like try to devise where certain things come from. So I'm again, big movie nerd. So me and my friends will like watch like a classic movie and then pause it and be like, okay, so like this rule, where do we think that came from? You know, and so we'll try to like figure out like when did this first show up in movies or then like where is that stemming from historically? So I'm a big movie nerd and I like to focus in on that sometimes.
Kim: I have a question that is completely unrelated to anything that you just brought up because it's something I've been wondering.
Tonya: Okay, yeah.
Kim: This whole blow cinnamon into your doorway thing.
Tonya: Oh my God.
Kim: What is that? It just randomly popped up and now everybody's acting like it's...
Tonya: Can I get... Now I'm about to get intense for a second. I'm very concerned about the way this information is traveling, and the way this information is being so mindlessly believed, in a time and culture where we have dealt with other information being mindlessly believed. And that has led to like, bad things, and scary things, and it's spooking me out that this information is traveling to people who otherwise wouldn't seek it out. And I'm freaked out by it. Not by like the cinnamon thing, but like this... I'm kind of worried that like pop witchcraft is being, is going to be used in a way that is scary. You know what I mean? It's hard to explain.
Kim: Yes, it was something that, I was thinking about it when I wasn't speaking.
Tonya: I'm like, yeah. It scares me very much and it scares me because I have found family who are very, very Southern, very Baptist Southern, who are very country people who would not seek out this information, who are texting me about hearing these things. It scares me.
Kim: What??
Tonya: Yeah. It spooks me because it's not that that itself is scary, the cinnamon thing. It's the fact that this that we're living in a world now where content creators just need to create content, and they know the best content is content they say is important! or scary! or rules! and then people who don't have the knowledge information or background to suss out what's dogma, or what's opinion, or who can't tell. It freaks me out that there's like direct lines of like information. I don't know. It just freaks me out. And I don't know how to like...
Kim: So did Sharon just make this up and just make a TikTok about it and now it's canon?
Tonya: That's kind of like what it's... And that's what it feels like, is I feel like the best content posts, you know, that these people feel, I guess, pressured to make, it gets its best numbers when it sounds super serious. So they make it super serious. And then people who don't know that it's not super serious interpret it as super serious. And that freaks me out. It freaks me out for how far that information is traveling, and how quickly, and who's picking up on it.
Kim: *sighs* It stresses me out.
Tonya: I know it's weird. It freaks me out. Here's the thing, it wouldn't spook me if the past few years hadn't happened.
Kim: Yeah... Okay, I can't go into that thought right now.
Tonya: That's where I was like, I'll answer this, but we're about to get intense.
Tonya: What are your thoughts on familiars?
Kim: So this is actually the thing I woke up at 5 a.m. about and I was like, "I have feelings on this." So I have a lot of feelings about familiars in terms of this is one of those things I was talking about where, how I don't, like... information is just very fascinating. So I think your average witch has an incorrect idea of what familiars are. And I know incorrect is a very intense term.
Kim: So many butts are hurting right now.
Tonya: I know. The butts. They hurt. *laughs* So the thing is, is that traditionally before the, you know, Christians came, and the 14th to 17th century European thing happened... Familiars were just familiar spirits. And they were just spirits, which is connected to, to help with their witchcraft. So it could be your dead aunt, or your Witch friend who died but she, you know, connects with you to do witchcraft, right? And that's all it was. It wasn't... and could a familiar like reincarnate into your pet? Sure, why not. Just, I mean if you believe people can reincarnate into pets, then sure, why can't your friend witch reincarnate into your pet? Sure.
You know, but that, so where the idea of pet familiars come from is actually from one of the first ever group, group persecutions of witchcraft. And this happened in Orleans, France, where a group of clergy people were put on trial for witchcraft. And it was a big deal because it was one of the first groups. We had already had a woman put to death for witchcraft. We had already had our first witch hunt. So we had already had these firsts, but this was the first, like, group. So a lot of these firsts really dictated the stereotypes we have for witches, right? So the first person put to death was an unhoused woman. She had the haggard "hag" look, and that's why we still have that today.
And so this group in Orleans, France, who were these clergy people who were found to be, you know, they were charged for witchcraft for whatever reason. A lot of what was going on at that particular event has since been stereotyped as being a witch thing. So the whole, you know, witches hurt children, that's from that event. There was a black cat there that night. So these things get wrapped into their documents and then we know that these documents at the time during like the European witch hunts were mass produced and shared for other people to find witches, right? Or you know, heretics. And I always say that word wrong, but heretics, heretics.
KIm: As long as we understand the word you mean, It doesn't matter.
Tonya: Oh, good. Oh my gosh, people love to tell me when I pronounce words wrong. So of course, because this is the, like, these images and stereotypes are getting wrapped into what to look for, right? When you're looking for a witch or someone consorting with the devil, of course that's the information that made its way to, Salem Massachusetts. And then you have in a lot of court documents, "Well I saw her turn into a cat," or this or that. And so the idea of our pets being familiars really actually comes from the Christians. Whereas previously it, a familiar was just a familiar spirit, a spirit you were familiar with. So I don't get wrapped up into the familiar thing.
Kim: Hmm. That's not where I expected this to go, but I like it.
Tonya: *laughs* Yeah, I feel like it tends to be a downer, so I tend to not bring it up unless someone asks.
Kim: I don't think it is.
Tonya: Oh cool.
Kim: I think it's super interesting. I like knowledge.
Kim: Yeah, that's the thing is that you know when we talk about like myths and myths like myths and misinformation is that there are some people who will think it's interesting, and some people who think you're a buzzkill, and you never quite know, and I love their commitment.
Kim: They want their cat to be special.
Tonya: Yeah, because you want to live the fantasy and I get it. I like the fantasy too, you know. But I think real life is more interesting.
Kim: I'm guessing since you work with spirits, I mean, it sounds like you do, that you do have familiars right now?
Tonya: Yeah, so I definitely have at least one familiar spirit who I've had, I believe, most of my life. I he's definitely like a great great great Grandfather and he likes to hang around. I do think he probably had similar abilities that I do, because he likes to... Like there have been situations where I'll be... Maybe like because I want to feel a part of something. I'll go to like a public seance or something, or a public like witchy thing. And I'll try to participate and sometimes he'll come to me and be like, yeah, "Let's not do that today, here, right now." I'll be like, "Alright." So he's like my little, I don't want to say little, that's like infantalizing him. But he is really cool and I feel really lucky that he hangs out with me because he probably has a lot of great, great, great grandchildren he could hang out with.
Kim: That's so neat. What a nice way to think about it.
Tonya: He is neat.
Kim: What would you say is the most surprising thing that you found about being a witch?
Tonya: I didn't... *laughs* So this, okay, so this does come from the fact that I really started digging into what a witch was at like 12, 13, 14. And I really was small town, middle of nowhere in the South, so the one book at the library. It was very much a solo sport. And I will say I did not expect the social aspects of it.
Kim: What would you say is the most surprising thing about the magazine?
Tonya: Oh gosh, that it's been seven years. I think like next August or something we're going to be at like a hundred issues. Well, digital, like our traditional monthly issue will be a hundred. Yeah, that it's still going is so crazy. Just because I never expected it.
Kim: If you could only recommend one book to a new witch, what would it be and why?
Tonya: Oh, that's so hard, because I feel like there's so many different things you want to touch on and no book does it all. Is it narcissistic to say my book? Kim: No.
Tonya: Okay, so I do think I did a decent job at my book. Of course, it was written like five years ago, and there's maybe certain things I would put in there now or take out or whatever, but one of my favorite reviews I got on my book, which is The Door to Witchcraft, it's been translated like, I think like four times. But one thing I really loved is I found primary sources for a lot of my history and actual documents. I'm a big believer in not citing other witch books because you're interpreting an already interpretation. And then I think one of my favorite reviews was from someone who's a historian. And he was like, "It's so crazy to see accurate history in a witch book." And I thought that was really cool.
Kim: That is cool!
Tonya: Yeah, it was nice. So I did put in a lot of effort into it. It's very simple, which is why I think it's good. I think it's a good book. I've had people say it makes the other beginner books make sense. So it's like if you've tried the other beginner books and they still feel a little confusing, I think my book takes it a little bit of a step backwards. And I was also proud I really put my foot down with a lot of things. My publisher had this idea of, well, you need to talk about how this is a thing. And I was like, okay, but there's actually no fact-based thing on that thing, so I won't talk about that because I think that is just lore. And there is lore that's important. Candle color associations, that's at the end of the day, that's just lore and that's acceptable. But when we're talking about history and facts, I don't use lore as a source. So there were things where I said, "I cannot talk about this because there is no actual fact based information on it." So I was very proud of that. So I do think my book is a good place to start. But I think Margot Adler's Drawing Down the Moon is a wonderful foundation, foundational book. It's very dense.
Kim: I actually pulled a little from your book when I was putting together my dream tincture.
Tonya: Oh, yay. Did it work out? Is it okay?
Kim: Yeah, it tastes like I want to die, but it works.
Tonya: Yeah, the good stuff typically does.
Kim: How would you say environment, or would you say that environment shaped your practice? Do you think if you grew up somewhere else that it would be different?
Tonya: This is actually really fascinating because, um, yeah. Okay. When I was five, five or six, my family was separated. So like split in half. So we lost all contact with them. Uh, but they, so both grew up in the South. However, I was around my mother and not, uh, this other person and looking at them now and like how they've all turned out, we could not be polar opposites, like the two sides of the family. I'm talking super Christian, super maybe evangelical, literally could not be more polar opposite. So I do think there may be some environmental, I think I'm very lucky to have been with the the part of the family that was very whatever floats your boat. But I actually had this conversation with my mom's best friend and I said, looking at how I could have been, I was like, isn't it crazy the thought that I could have been super Christian? And she was like, girl, you were never going to be super Christian. She's like, I remember when you were three. She's like that just was never gonna be it. So it's weird. So I guess it's the nature versus nurture thing and yeah, I don't know. It's maybe both?
Kim: Hmm.
Tonya: I don't know but I've seen the other half of the family, and the path that like they went. And it is could not be the most polar opposite to my life.
Kim: I'm thinking about my own life.
Tonya: I know. It's why...
Kim: This is such a thoughtful episode for me personally.
Tonya: Yeah, they're really good. They're your questions. They're so good.
Kim: Yeah, but other... I know how I interpret the questions, but now I'm I always forget that other people's experience exists, which sounds stupid, but I can't explain why.
Tonya: No, it's fair. Yeah, it's fair.
Kim: Actually, I have a patron question from Andrea.
Tonya: Oh, I know Andrea...
Kim: Who is asking for a recipe.
Tonya: Oh, really?
Kim: Yeah.
Tonya: Okay, like what does she want? So just a recipe?
Kim: She said you love food and you love talking about food and you love cooking and I also love all of those things.
Tonya: Oh my gosh, so just a recipe. Okay, well I have like a tip.
Kim: That works.
Tonya: So I love French onion soup, but I will say most French onion soups call for white wine, which is fine. If you want to make my French onion soup, use red wine. And I think it's better.
Kim: They call for red wine? I would think it would be made with red wine.
Tonya: Like, no offense, Julia Child, but...
Kim: I've never made it, but I would think it would be.
Tonya: You would think. So that's kind of like my little tip. I like, every fall I share with them this accidental pumpkin chili recipe I like accidentally discovered. So we share that every fall.
Kim: Is it pureed or chunked?
Tonya: Oh, pureed.
Kim: Oh man.
Tonya: Yeah.
Kim: Oh man. I chuck sweet potatoes into mine.
Tonya: I love sweet potatoes.
Kim: Dang it. And I'm intermittent fasting and I'm not going to eat until probably two.
Tonya: Oh no.
Kim: I always get hungry when I talk about food and I love talking about food. Who or what would you say are the three biggest influences on your practice?
Tonya: First and foremost, in terms of like my early days of like a little 13 year old witch, probably my friend Fiona Horne. We have like a really cool thing where when I was starting the magazine, I remember really liking her as a young witch. And so I reached out to her and I was like, I want to interview you. I was such a fan of yours when I was young. And we like developed this really nice relationship and I got to, I got to work with her on like, you know, one of her books and it was really wonderful. And I had this moment where I'm living in New Orleans. I'm from a small country town. And Fiona is valuing my opinion on her book. And I was like, if you told like 12-year-old me, who was stuck in the middle of nowhere, who when I talked about moving, my friends would like make fun of me, like if you told me that I was here doing this right now, uh, I would be so shocked. And then I told this to Fiona and Fiona told me, she's like, when you reached out to interview me, that's when I knew I had more to offer. It's like the witch world. And so it's like, we kind of have these like beautiful little circly moments together. So I really just value her and her friendship. Magically, I would say my familiar spirit, my great-great-great-great-grandfather who hangs out with me. I think he is really impactful in my practice because I think we have similar practices and abilities. And then for the third, maybe all of the really cool 90s fictional witches that made the fantasy seem so alluring.
Kim: I love that. What would you tell somebody just starting out?
Tonya: If you meet anyone who claims to know all the secrets, avoid them. And read a lot.
Kim: I agree. Now, thinking about how much experience you have compared to that beginner, go the opposite direction to somebody more experienced. What do you want to hear from them right now?
Tonya: Oh, like what would I ask them?
Kim: Sure. Or would you want them to just volunteer to tell you?
Tonya: Oh. Well, I will say, I think my advice to seasoned witches is to read all the books you read when you were starting because you'll see things you didn't see the first time. But what I would ask is, I think I would ask is what does it take to continue to grow your and your ability is past the point where you feel like you've got an under lock.
Kim: Do people feel like that? Who feels like that?
Tonya: Oh wait, what do you mean?
Kim: You feel like you have an under lock?
Tonya: Yeah, I feel like I know what my talent is and I know how to use my own abilities. I would ask, how do you continue to grow?
Kim: Who would you like to see on this show answering these sorts of questions?
Tonya: Someone I who I think is really thoughtful and such a good soul, my friend Kiki Dombrowski. And she's really interesting because she's a witch who has her foot in the paranormal community. So she's really fun because you'll be talking about how she's been doing tarot for 25 years, and then she'll talk about Bigfoot. And it's just a blast and a half.
Kim: That makes me happy.
Tonya: Yeah, I love her so much. Is there anything else that you want to bring up or anything you wanted to ask me?
Tonya: Yeah, like what encouraged you to start your podcast?
Kim: Oh cuz I'm really nosy.
Tonya: Oh, yeah, it's good one. Yeah. That's a good, that, I mean that is a good reason. Like I feel like people aren't nosy enough. Yeah, I love that. Yes, so I do have some stuff I'm working on. I have a book that I am working on currently that's coming out next year titled TBD. But it's a book on like magical systems and structures. Like as we talked about here, I really love research and I like to learn a lot. And I've been paying a lot of attention to how different groups communicate and learn and are formed, and the cultures around them. So I'm working on a book right now that really takes a look at those structures. Not in a super like academic way, even though I work very hard to make sure things are actually correct, but looks at them more of here, how, "Here are the like most common structures, here's how they work, here are people who have done them, here's what they've warned against or love. Now, let's help build your own magical group."
I'm just very excited. I'm like a third of the way through it. I also just had a book come out as editor, Raising Little Witchlings by Amanda Wilson, and it's a pagan parenting book. We take a look at the research for current modern parenting, as well as how to navigate being magical parents with magical children and like fun exercises and things. I do want to give a shout out, she's not going to hear this, but I'm just so proud of her and she tells me to stop, but I'm so proud. Witch Way, our fiction writer, Miss Olivie Blake, who has been writing for Witch Way for years is now like a superstar, and has like these New York Times bestselling books out and she has like a series with Amazon coming out, and I'm so proud of her. And I just want, I don't know, read all of the stuff she's ever written. It's so good.
And then my last thing, I just like, I feel like I'm surrounded by such cool people. And I do have a planner coming out, the Hectic Witches Planner for 2023, is now available in paperback and hard copy if you want to pick it up. I structured it how me, an obsessive planner, likes to structure my stuff. But it has fun little planting guides and a little article for every month and a ritual planner and things like that. So definitely check it out. But I'm very, very, very lucky to be surrounded by such talented, cool people. And I think about that all the time. And thank you, Andrea, for recommending me for the podcast.
Kim: She's so great.
Tonya: I like Andrea so much.
Kim: Me too. Now at the end, I have two things that I don't give you ahead of time. And one of those things is, would you please recommend something to the listeners? Doesn't have to be witchy. It can be anything.
TOnya: I love memoirs. They're my favorite type of book to read. So if I had to recommend any memoir, I would recommend Yes, Please by Amy Poehler because it is the only book I'm able to quote as frequently and as passionately as I do. And if you are maybe someone who didn't feel like you grew up with a cool adult who could share their life with you and give you some life lessons, I think she's a good aunt to choose.
Kim: Everybody needs a good aunt. I try to be one.
Tonya: Yeah, everyone does. And I think a lot of us, maybe if we grew up in a culture where that wasn't a thing, I think it's really, yeah, we all need a cool aunt. And I like that I picked up her book when I did at the age I was. And I feel like I got my cool aunt moment with her.
Kim: Yay! And the second thing is, think of a story that you tend to tell when you get around, people with whom you're very comfortable, like family or friends, and this story always comes up and you like to tell it. Please tell that story.
Tonya: Oh. Okay. Okay, so this is another, this is witchy. This was actually during the same season of the dead as when I got that photo. So basically, I had a dream and it was one of those very intense dreams where you can feel everything, and it was really strange. And I go to this coffee shop here in New Orleans, and in real life, I have had like a falling out with the owner, but I had to go there because I was doing a reading for a friend of a friend in the dream. So I go to the coffee shop and I see the friend. In real life, I don't really know this person. I'm doing the reading, and I'm doing the reading based off of how the sun is coming through the window and hitting these metal shelves. That's like, how the shadow hits is how I'm giving this reading. And I gave this woman a reading.
And later after I woke up I told the mutual friend what the reading was, and she did tell me it was like very accurate to like the woman's life. But in the dream, I gave the reading and the coffee shop owner was there, the person who in real life I had had like a falling out with. And I'm like, I'm kind of a socially awkward person. So I was like, What do I do? Do I hug her? Like, I didn't know what to do. So I was like very, uh-uh. And then she told me, she's like, oh, I have someone coming in to give me a reading. And she says, the necromancers. The necromancers are coming, and they're gonna give me a reading. And I was like, oh, well, like this is my out, right? Because me and her are falling out and I don't really wanna talk to her. And I think it's rude to kind of hang out when someone's getting a reading. So I was like, good opportunity for me to bounce, you know.
So I was like, okay, cool. I'm going to go and I go to leave and the necromancers come in, the people who she said were giving her a reading. And it was this older, I say older, maybe like middle-aged man, this older, older, short woman and then these two men who were maybe like in their 30s. And at the time, I'm very bad with history, so any psychic thing that happens to me, I never quite know how to explain things because I'm not good at time periods and stuff. But I kind of recognized that what they were wearing was maybe like something you would see on like Little House on the Prairie, you know, and like they were very tanned and like that's all I knew how to like explain what like, you know, what these people who the coffee shop owner had deemed necromancers look like.
And I go to leave because I, you know, it's rude. I need to go. And the woman, none of them say a word, but the woman looks at me and she puts her hands out and does like the motion for a hug and I say "Oh, okay." I don't know you, but I say okay, so I gave her a hug and then one of the younger men next to her does the same thing. He's like oh, okay, so I give him a hug. And then I look to like this second younger man and he does that like "Ew, no, I don't want a hug" gesture and then I'm like no I don't want to hug either. Like, they made me decide. I don't want to hug. And he was like, no, I don't want to hug. And then like the main guy, so this was the guy who was like giving the reading and you could tell he was the prominent guy. And he looks at me and he and he puts his hands out and he's like, hug, like give me a hug. And I did. And that moment where you could like know there's a spirit around because you feel this little shoot of energy go up and down your spine?
Kim: Nope.
Tonya: Okay, so that's how it happens sometimes. And so it was like that, but times 100. Like it was so intense, I thought I was gonna faint. And it woke me up. And I was so confused about this dream. It was so intense, I couldn't stop thinking about it. I called my friend immediately and I was like, I did a reading for your friend with the shelves. And she was like, no, that's everything going on in her life right now.
And I was like, OK. And I was I could not stop thinking about these people who like wanted hugs, except for the one, who wanted hugs. And I could not stop thinking about it. Like I was so overwhelmed by that feeling from when I hugged the one man. And I go to my friend and I said, I have this dream. I can't shake it. I can't shake it. I can't shake it. And he says, and he goes, Tonya. And like, he, you know, he's one of my favorite friends because he's older and he likes to do the like, you know, you stupid young person, duh. Like, and I love that about him so much because sometimes you need it. And he was like, he's like, "Tonya," he's like, "That was an ancestor visit. They were coming to say hi." And that's when I realized that, Oh, the necromancers, like necromancers are people who communicate with spirits. That's what I do. These are my people who hang, who hang around with me and, and, you know, and they came to visit and yeah, I realized that the guy was my great, great, great grandfather.
Kim: Your familiar?
Tonya: Yeah, who hangs around with me. Yeah, he wanted a more corporeal visit, I guess.
Kim: That is so neat.
Tonya: It was really cool and it is something I will never forget. It was an experience, even just telling it, I remember what it felt like. It was so intense. I will never forget that moment. Really, really cool because from all of the time I've spent with him as my familiar spirit, he doesn't poke around. You know what I mean? He's not intrusive and he doesn't demand a lot of attention. He only steps in and around when he needs to. So to have that moment was very, very cool. And it was around the same time I also got that photo of my other side of the family. So I was just having this like really ancestral like month, like during that time period.
Kim: That is so neat.
Tonya: Yeah, that's like one of my favorite little stories. And it just means like so much to me. It was such a a full moment.
Kim: I was skeeved until the moment where you realized who it was.
Tonya: Yeah, well cuz like like in the dream it definitely wasn't scary, It was just like "Oh like I feel awkward, because I'm in this coffee shop with someone you know, who's owned by someone who I don't like who doesn't like me." like it just felt kind of awkward. And then like like they're not speaking. You know, I'm, you know, I'm assuming it's probably because they don't speak English, you know what I mean? Like we, we, we probably wouldn't know, you know what I mean? Like each other's language. Um, because that side of my family wouldn't have spoken English. So like, I assume they weren't speaking because I wouldn't have understood like their language, but it was just like a really beautiful moment. And I I get really warm and cozy when I get to share it with people.
Kim: That's so cool. Well, thanks for being on the show.
Tonya: Yeah, thanks for having me. This was a lot of fun.
Kim: Good.
Tonya: I've never gotten to do like something like this. So it's really cool.
Kim: Okay, then I will see you on the internet in the Facebook group. Bye. on the internet in the Facebook group. Bye!
Kim: Once again it's review time. This one says, "Kim had me on as a guest and was a great host. She also encouraged me to get my own podcast, WitchLit, off the ground." This is from past guest Victoria Rashke, who does have her own podcast. It is called the WitchLit podcast. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, and you can find her on Instagram @Witchlitpod. Thank You Victoria! It was a pleasure to have you on, and I love that you started your podcast.
Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of Your Average Witch. You can find us all around the internet on Instagram @youraveragewitchpodcast, Twitter at Average Witch Pod, Facebook at Facebook.com/youraveragewitchpodcast, at YourAverageWitch.com and at your favorite podcast service. Want to help the podcast grow? Leave a review. You can review us on Amazon and Apple podcasts and now you can rate us on Spotify. You just might hear your review read at the end of the next episode. To rate your average witch on Spotify, click the home key, click on Your Average Witch Podcast, and then leave a rating. You can also support the show by going to patreon.com/cleverkimscurios. If you'd like to recommend someone for the podcast, like to be on it yourself, or if you'd like to advertise on the podcast, send an email to youraveragewitchpodcast at gmail.com. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you when the moon changes.