In this episode I'm talking to Vervain Helsdottir, author and witch. We discuss community, working with deity, and communicating with spirit. 

vervainandtheroses.com
instagram.com/vervainandtheroses
welcometomagicschool.com

Vervain Helsdottir.

Author, witch, creator, lover of plant magic

Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where we talk about witch life, witch stories, and sometimes a little witchcraft, on the full and new moon every month. In this episode, I'm talking to Vervain Helsdottir, author and witch. We discuss community, working with deity, and communicating with spirit. Now let's get to the stories!

Kim:  Hi, Vervain. Welcome to the show. 

Vervain: Hi. Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here.

Kim: Yay. I think you're one of the first people that were like a referral where another previous guest said, "I think you should have [this person]." And so here you are. 

Vervain: I was so honored and surprised to hear that. And I was so excited. And I'm, I was like already listening to every episode. And I love Lilith. And it was really an honor to be referred and I'm happy to be here. 

Kim: Oh, yay, yay, yay. Please introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and where they can find you. 

Vervain: Yes, ma'am. I am Vervain Helsdottir and I wear many different witch hats, but the best, easiest place to find me is at Vervain and the Roses on Instagram. You can also find me, I have a lot of like resources and stuff on my website vervainandtheroses.com and then for the more magically inclined, although it's really all for the magically inclined, who am I kidding, my podcast is at welcometomagicschool.com and also like at welcome to magic school on Instagram, and it's also called welcome to magic school if you're searching for it. So those are those are probably the easiest places to find me. As I said, I wear a lot of witch hats. I am the founder of Oil Coven, which is like an online community of witches united by the internet and our love of plant magic. And I am a divinatory coach, which is kind of just a fancy way of describing my particular approach to divination and tarot reading. I'm also a singer-songwriter. I have my first single out and I'm working on my first album right now, which I plan... will release in 2022. Choosing that word. 

Kim: Yeah. 

Vervain: Not plan, not want, will. I'm also a podcaster. I have a muggle job as well. I'm a supervisor at Starbucks, believe it or not. And I'm an author. I have two books. The first one is called Modern Runes and the second one is called Essential Oil Magic. People seem to like them. And that's the short list or like the really brief version of what I do. 

Kim: The short list? Holy crap. I was thinking, holy crap, there's so many things and I'm just a piddler. *laughs*

Vervain: Well, but you're actually like really focused at the things that you're doing. Or so it seems to me, because you're getting them done is what it seems to me. 

Kim: It's a facade. It's all a facade.

Vervain:  Isn't that what counts sometimes? 

Kim: I'm actually an actress. *laughs*

Vervain:  I think a lot of magic is about faking it until you make it. 

Kim: So what made you want to do all these things? What made you want to call yourself a witch and do podcasts and start these businesses? 

Vervain: So I, the best answer I can give is that I literally don't know how not to. I'm super neurodivergent. I don't have any official diagnoses, but like I'm almost certainly autistic and probably super ADD as well. And that really comes through in, that's, that's where that long list of things comes things come from is from an ability to like hyper focus on something that interests me as soon as I come across it, and go really, really, really, really deep with it, and then also just like on a complete whim move on to something else. And so these are the things that I've actually come back to multiple times. 
You know, I go through my first hyper focus phase on it and then it's like, you know, that's actually like, that still really interests me even after that. I'm going to come back around and revisit another layer of that. So the things that I'm like actually still doing, because so much of like over the last couple of years, I've been like shedding things and letting go of things. And a lot of that is commitments. And like, because I've learned like you really can only do one thing at any given moment, and there are only so many hours in a day to split up between all the different things that you want to do. And to do anything really well requires a lot of time, and so it's it's looked the last couple years have looked like a lot of you know that's actually not as important to me right now and I'm gonna I'm gonna maybe not do as much painting. Or I'm gonna maybe stop serving tea at the tea house, which is like these things actually like fill me with immense sadness to think about the fact that like it's been so long since I've hosted tea. 
Like I used to be a Gong Fu Cha tea server at this Chinese tea house in town and I used to paint all the time and like I'm currently like recording in my painting... my painting area has become my podcasting area. And because I guess magic has, I think like before I had any idea that magic could be like something that other people recognized as actually existing. Like as a child, I think I, you know, I always had this sense, I think as children, most of us have this sense of the undercurrent of magic in the world of scientific atheism, you- or at least I was, you know, fed these ideas, like that's pretend, that's fantasy. And then this is the real world and the real world only consists of things that we can measure and quantify. 
And I've, so I've, and as, as, as also I'm, my parents are a scientist and a doctor. And so I really came from the heart of scientific atheism. Not to say my parents aren't atheists, but I think in the Western world, there's a general con, uh, what's the word? The consensus, the general consensus is that magic isn't real. God, no one really knows like what God is, or if God is, or... but you don't really bring him up in academic contexts, which are the only real contexts. And so I've been living most of my life on the one hand, like trying to, seeking approval subconsciously from academia and that side of things. And like wanting to, you know, earn the respect of people like my parents, while simultaneously not being able to on good conscience deny what I feel in my spirit to be true about the existence of magic or of spirit or, or the you know, the realness of my spiritual and magical experiences. 
And it was really... It's been a really long journey of kind of like walking the tightrope between those two things, and not really being willing to commit to believing in anything, until actually pretty recently. And I still would say that my biggest struggle is with belief, but magic also calls to me more loudly than anything else in its many different forms, and it's a call that I can't ignore, and I've never been able to ignore it. And even though I've spent a lot of time in my life telling myself like, "Oh you shouldn't bother wasting your time on things that aren't real," at the same time as I would try to talk myself into doing what adults do or whatever, I would also be like, you know, my ears would perk up at anything that suggested that what I knew in my heart was actually like true and out there and could be touched and reached and communicated with. 
And if I would feel an answer in the wind, it would... And so I've spent a lot of time, I guess, like ping-ponging back and forth between going very deep into magic, and then going very deep into all things practical. And I don't know if I'm answering your question anymore, but the answer to why magic, why witchcraft? Why be a witch? Why read cards? Why bring witches together? Why work with plants? Like it's all the answers to all of those are the same. It's like I literally don't know how not to. 

Kim: Okay, now you made me wonder something. This is just me being nosy. Do you consider yourself to be atheist? 

Vervain: No. 

Kim: Okay, so you work with gods and goddesses?

Vervain: Yeah, I, there were times in my life that in, I remember in middle school when I was like first becoming aware of religion, because my parents are like nominally Christian, right? But I never went to church. I never read the Bible except for Luke two on Christmas Eve. And there was a point in middle school where I like became aware that like religion was a thing and you had to like believe in it to be it. And I was like, oh, I guess I'm not a Christian because I don't actually know what that is. And I don't think I can be a religion if I don't even know what these people believe. I don't know any of the stories. I don't know what the religion is, so that can't be me.
And I didn't really know about the options. And I was like, okay, well, I guess if it's not that, I guess I believe in nothing. And over time I found that I would like, as middle schoolers will, I would like create this fantasy world and this like fantasy religion for the fantasy world and at one point I found myself like talking to the deities that I had created for this fantasy world. I was like, "Okay I know this that I made, I know I made this up and this isn't, I'm not going to find any external validation for this anywhere. But also, these are just names. I'm talking to something. I clearly believe in something. I'm deriving some comfort from talking to these personalities, whether they exist or not."
So, and I, one of the things that's really changed my perspective on a lot of things is I've listened to a lot of Jordan Peterson, I know that's controversial, but he has this, he said this thing about how what you believe is not what you say you believe, but is reflected in what you do and how you behave. And I've realized that like when I talk about what I believe, I can be really on the fence and try to justify both sides and play devil's advocate and not pick a side. But the only way that I know what I actually believe is by looking at what do I feel called to do and what do I do and how do I behave. And I do have conversations with spirit. I do work with gods. And so I guess at the end of the day, I have to say I believe in them. And that was really where I came from in my recent decision to pick that side, I guess, if that makes sense. 

KIm: Well, I ask because I call myself atheist because I don't believe in gods, but I do believe in the entities that people call gods. Like I work with these beings, but I don't necessarily call them gods. So some people might call me atheist. I don't know. It was just in there. It just struck me as interesting. So I just thought I'd throw it out there. So what does it mean to you when you call yourself a witch?

Vervain: It has this ring of responsibility. Like whenever I use that word for myself, there's this innate – there's this like internal sense of like, that's a lot of responsibility. Like, make sure you're willing to live up to that, because to me, a witch is somebody who, and this is not to like, shit on other people's definitions of witch or to say like, this is "the" definition, but like, this is what it means to me when I call myself this. To me, to be a witch is to take responsibility for my own energy, to, you know, to recognize that the way that events play out in the world is affected by more than what we can measure, and predict, and more than what we can touch. And that we have access to affect the subtle energetic forces, patterns, etc, around us, and because of that, because we recognize that we have the ability to interact with these forces, we have to take responsibility, or I should say I, because I recognize that I have to take responsibility for the fact that I can change things. And so if there's something in my life or around me that I don't like, I either have to acknowledge that I'm choosing to do nothing about it, and that's a choice, or I have to do something about it. 

Kim: I wish more people would acknowledge that there is that choice, and choosing not to do things is a choice. 

Vervain: And we always have a choice, and that has been such a big realization for me. And it has really helped me, actually, a lot. Because there, you know, I don't love every single aspect of my life, you know, but if I allow myself to feel like I keep those aspects in my life because I don't have a choice, I can grow bitter and resentful. When the truth is like, I keep my muggle job because it provides a layer of security, you know, and that layer of security is worth it to me right now. Even though that job is also like the one thing in my life that I keep from a place of fear rather than from a place of power. And that's something that I do want to move away from. And so I feel like I don't like that, but it's also like, well, I have the choice. I have the opportunity every single day to quit or to look for something else, but there are enough good things about it. And I love the people enough, and I value the security enough, that I choose to keep it. And that's a choice. 

Kim: Yes. I left a really, for me, a really good paying job and I'm now making minimum wage, but I am so much happier. And am I struggling? Yes. Because it's also a part-time job because I have a lot of shit going on outside of work, but... I chose that. And I know I could have a different life, but I wouldn't be as happy.

Vervain: Yeah.

Kim: Even though I had more stuff and more financial security.

Vervain: Yeah, it's about like what everyone is making sacrifices all the time But what are you choosing to sacrifice and what are you sacrificing to? 

Kim: Well considering I might die tomorrow. I don't want to be miserable. I don't want to be miserable right now because I worked that job. 

Vervain: Exactly. Exactly. 

Kim: Do you have any daily rituals that you'll share with us? 

Vervain: I am far too scatterbrained to have anything that's actually daily, to have anything that I could actually say. I have done that every day. I do that every day. But I have a lot of things that I do almost daily. I do take care of my body daily and that, I will say, is like a conscious ritual because as one of the things that makes me feel that I'm autistic is I have super, like a really hard time with self-care. It's just, it always seems like, and I mean, even basic hygiene has taken so long for me to get down. Because my creative mind is just like, no, we have so many more important things to do than to brush our hair right now, which I don't brush my hair anymore, that's great.
I love that. But it's been, it had to be a very conscious journey of saying, no, I am important, my body is important, none of these things that I value about, like all these things that I get to do with my creative mind, none of those things exist without this body. And taking care of this body is really, really important. And it's worth the time that it takes, and the energy that it takes, and the resources that it takes. So I would say like starting my day with my NingXia and my water and with my oils and making time to, you know, stand under running water and shed the energy of the day and to shed the layers of dead skin that are, you know, both like physically weighing me down and also energetically holding me back, you know? And so taking like, turning a shower into a cleansing ritual is something that I would say is more like a ritual. And then not daily, but monthly I do give blood to my plants. Well, it's a two of, they're not like my plants, they're two plants that live on the property that I rent that I have developed a deep connection with and that I will not be able to take with me when I go. 

Kim: Oh, no!

Vervain:  And that's something that I think about a lot. But yeah, I think that's probably like the most regular things that I do. Cleansing, diffuser, yeah, using my oils and stuff and drinking water. And I say a lot of things with my water as well. Usually when I drink water, I like to say just like "Water is the source of all life: as I drink it, or think about that or... 

Kim: I like that! Oh my gosh, because I live in the desert so I drink water all the time. Like I drink water every morning too. Oh, oh. Oh I might I might add that.

Vervain:  I do also I want to get like stickers made so I can put them on my my water cups like permanently but... sometimes I'll like write or make a little temporary sticker with the rune Laguz to put on my water. 

Kim: That's one of my favorite runes. 

Vervain: It's a good one. And it's my hydration rune. So I put that on my water a lot.

 Kim: I'm going to have, I'm not going to put this in, I'm going to have anxiety about those plants now. 

Vervain: Well, let me respond to that actually. You can take it out if you want. So the two plants are a juniper tree and a rose, well, I always want to call it a rose bush but it's like way taller than me. So it's kind of a rose tree. And I've actually taken some cuttings of the rose and I have not succeeded at getting them to sprout but I feel like the rose is, while it is like the rose that is the reason that I'm called Vervain and the Roses on all my socials and everything, like it is like this rose's doing that I've made those connections and like this specific rose and I have history, it's also, I feel like it's very strongly attached to this house. And I feel like the spirit of this rose and the spirit of this house are very connected. And I trust the rose to take really good care of the next. 
Like, I don't think I'm supposed to take the spirit of this rose with me when I go. You know, I think the spirit of this rose is supposed to stay and protect whatever family lives in this house. And I guess also I would say that like, I don't, I'm not too big on like caring exactly what is the proper name of God or the proper name of various spirits or whatever, so like, I don't know, like... is the spirit that I talked to when I talked to the Rose, is it my house? Is it that plant? Is it Freya? Is it some like, misterious like, overarching umbrella divine feminine, I don't know. But I know that what I get from that relationship, I can get from, like, if I have grown that relationship with that plant, I trust myself to be able to grow relationships with the plants that live on, you know, with me in the future. And the same with the tree. That like it doesn't, like that's the juniper that I've, you know, that I made my runes from and that I give my blood to, but it's not the only juniper that I can talk to God through. 

Kim: I get excited when I, when people introduce me to things. I just get excited because I left my roses behind in Colorado. I had a giant, giant rose bush and we rented and it was so beautiful. And I'm looking at the bag of some of the petals that I dried the year before we left because I knew we were leaving. And that thing was immense and it smelled so great and it's hard to grow roses here. 

Vervain: Yeah, I can't really, well, okay. I don't want to use the words "I can't grow anything." but I have not historically had great success with growing things and I think it says something. The fact that the two plants that I have the deepest relationships with our plants that grew wild on my- or not wild but like we're growing all by themselves unattended feral on the property that I rent, and were already here, and like all I've done is just not kill them.

Kim:  Yeah that's that was the part I left out. *laughs*

Vervin: People sometimes, like- and I love plant magic. Like I love working with the magic of plants, I love being with living plants, I love talking with plants, I love using essential oils, I love drinking tea... Like I love plant magic. But and so people try to give me plants, and I just, I can't let them. I don't let people give me plants. I'm just like, "I don't think you should do this. Like, I really appreciate you."

Kim:  Please don't. 

Vervain: But like, I'm still trying to figure out how to give myself enough water and I haven't mastered that yet. So I don't think I should be held responsible for the life of a plant that is helpless and dependent on me. And I just don't have a good track record. Please give the plant to somebody else or take it back, but please spare it from me. 

Kim: Yeah, we've killed many a plant here. So I started buying only things that are native.

Vervain: Yeah. So, and I like, of course, I like dream of big gardens and a homestead and everything. And it's like, I, it has to be a dream, right? But, *laughs* I don't know, maybe I could learn. We just put some mushrooms out front. One of our friends came by and dropped a bunch of lion's mane mycelium in our, like, right next to our driveway. So it's not like doing anything yet, but I'm really excited about that. I feel like that's something that could, you know. It mostly does its own thing. I feel like I can handle that. I can, I can be a really good like housemate with a plant, I just... I shouldn't be responsible for it.

Kim:  Oh yeah. We don't have plants in the house. God forbid. *laughs*

Vervain: Well, land-mate, I guess, I don't know.

Kim:  What would you say is your biggest motivator in witchcraft? Or in your practice? 

Vervain: Two sides of the same coin. One of them is the depression that sets in when I start to stagnate.  And then the other is like, the other side of that coin is like the deep, deep unshakable knowing that I am meant for more than I've accomplished this far. And that I have limited time. I don't know how much time, but I know it's not infinite. And,  yeah, that's, those are,  those are, yeah, that's the, that's my final answer. 

Kim: Do you ever feel like an imposter? Do you ever have imposter syndrome or self-doubt? 

Vervain: Yeah, absolutely. 

Kim: What do you do? What do you do? 

Vervain: Oh, oh my gosh. Well, so I just want to start off by saying that, like, I've written two books and I don't feel like a real author. 

Kim: How dare you? You are. 

Vervain: Right. Well, I know that, and I know that. And I have that conversation with myself of like, "No, an author is someone who writes a book and you could possibly like narrow down that definition by saying that they have to have published it. But like, you've already done that twice, therefore you fit the definition." But like still in my brain, like every time I meet a standard, my brain creates a higher standard that's like, "Well, okay, like you did that, but like real authors do this."

Kim: "A good one..."

Vervain: Right. "A real one would do this..." And I think part of, well, I don't know. Okay, okay, back on track, back on track. Yes, so I will say in magic, because I doubt magic all the time, and that's... if I think about that fact too hard, I could cry right now. And I'm going to choose to steer a little bit away from that. 

Kim: Okay. If you cry, I'm going to cry, and I cry almost every interview. Even if you don't hear it, it happened. 

Vervain: Oh God, what was I saying? That...  

Kim: If it's real. 

Vervain: Oh yeah, oh yeah, so I doubt my own magic all the time. I don't think I ever actually, now that I'm saying this out loud, I don't think I ever actually doubt, like, the existence of magic. Because, like, I've seen it happen as much as one can see it happen. And I've felt it as much as one can feel it. So the doubt comes from the place of like, do I actually have any power here? And when I start to doubt my magic, I fall back on psychology, because they're remarkably similar. And only a few short leaps are required to jump from psychology to something that would have to be called magic. And you know, there are studies and statistics to show me that like, hey, if you do this, you can trick your brain into doing this. And I've always really resonated with, I think it's Doreen... oh God, I forget who said it, but the quote is that magic is the art of changing consciousness at will.

Kim: That's a quote? That's a good quote!

Vervain:  Yeah. That way I should look up who said it because they need credit. Oh, and I rhymed without even meaning to. 

Kim: You're a poet and don't know it. 

Vervain: And I've always loved the idea of magic being the art of changing consciousness at will, because I think the extrapolation that you make from that is that when you change consciousness, that changes the world around it. But if you recognize that changing your consciousness changes the world around you, then you realize that all you actually have to do to start achieving results is change your consciousness. And there are lots of tried and true methods for changing consciousness. Many of which are not found in magic books, but in psychology books. And or you'll find it in a magic book and it's like, well, there's totally a magical explanation for why this works, but there's also a totally sound psychological explanation for why this works. And I'm struggling to come up with any like specific examples. I always try to come up with specific examples, but...

Kim: Placebo?

Vervain: Well yes. I mean absolutely. 

Kim: If I feel better after placebo, I don't care if it's a placebo. 

Vervain: I consider the placebo affect to be magic by the way. Like when people talk about how like oh, that's not magic. That's just the placebo effect. It's like okay, well then fucking explain the placebo effect please, because as far as I can tell the placebo effect is just a scientific word for magic.

Kim: Yeah, and it still works. 

Vervain: Yeah, it's documented, it works. And so that's really when I have imposter syndrome with my magic, when I start to doubt my magic, I fall back on psychology. 

Kim: That makes me happy. I'm going to put on my science witch shirt. 

Vervain: But I also, I also, so as somebody who was raised in a nominally Christian household, but without any actual Christian... 

Kim: You didn't go to Bible school. 

Vervain: Yeah, I didn't know what it was, even. I've had the opportunity to study some of the biblical stories with fresh eyes as an adult, and have found a lot of value in them. I think about the idea that to see and believe is cool, but to not see it and believe is actually what faith is. With... so when I fall back on psychology as a way of like, well, even if you doubt your own power, like you don't have to doubt this particular thing about the way that human brains work, I do feel a little bit of guilt actually. For I guess abandoning faith in magic. Because I feel like so much of what I do magically actually is spirit work. It's actually like, it's more like prayer or like collaborating with spirit is more how it feels, rather than like making things happen with energy, with like a nameless, personality-less energy, you know? I don't know. 

Kim: The energy of the universe. 

Vervain: Right, yeah, yeah. I mean, I do a lot of that, but I feel like the more powerful stuff that I've done, a lot of it is more like negotiating with my gods and like, okay, this is what you want from me, well, I can do that, but this is what I need from you to do that. And this is what I'll do, like this is what I'll do, and this is what I need from you, and we're going to work together and both get what we want, basically. And when you have interactions with spirit, like over and over and over, like I can't tell you how many times I have felt pulled out of the darkness by something that I couldn't explain except by magic and by the existence of spirit with its own will, you know? And so I feel like a bad friend when I lose faith in it, if that makes sense. 

Kim: That's sweet! 

Vervain: Well, I do, I do. I feel like it feels disrespectful not to believe in someone who's done so much for me. And it feels disrespectful not to believe in my own power, when those beings have done so much for me specifically because they believe in me. I have the urge to say "If that makes sense," but I'm reminded that my friend Sam told me that when we- 

Kim: I just saw a meme about that recently. Yeah. Was it you?

Vervain:  Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, but we've probably seen the same thing where it's like, if you keep asking, like, "Does this make sense, does this make sense," you're like giving away your power in the conversation. 

Kim: Yeah. 

Vervain: And it's like if it doesn't make sense, they'll fucking tell you. 

Kim: Or they'll shut up and deal with it. But yes, it does. 

Vevain: So the way that I dealt with that urge was instead of saying, does that make sense? I told you that I had the urge, and then the urge almost went away. 

Kim: What brings you the most joy in your practice? 

Vervain: When the magic works. When... There's a special joy specifically to feeling answers in the wind. I would say that like talking to the wind is one of the main ways that I talk to God. There's something really special about like... it's a still night and blowing a kiss through my wind chimes, and just within seconds a breeze coming by. It's one of those things that it's like, I'll never be able to prove it, I'll never be able to demonstrate it, and I don't care because it just feels so special and so magical when it happens. And that's just one little example. But yeah, when the magic works and when it's like, wait, hold on, I did a spell for that and it happened. It actually happened. I actually had, there was a really fun example of this podcast related where I had set like the day that I was going to initially launch my podcast. And I really wanted to have it available on like all the primary platforms on launch day. And so I went to the trouble of like making an episode zero and everything to get it all set up. And Apple podcasts, I'm sure, you know, you have to like go through their own website...

Kim: Annoying.

Vervain: And I had, I got on like a week before and my account, I don't know, it was just like corrupt. Like I couldn't access most of the pages and I Googled it and they were like, yeah, like the only way to go around this is to actually email customer service. And I'm like, God, okay, we'll do it. And like 24 hours before the podcast was supposed to initially launch, I had not even heard back from them about like the problem and about like even being able to access my account, let alone submit my podcast for review. And I wrote, I was at work and I wrote on a little post-it, I just made like a little written post-it spell and I just wrote like "Welcome to Magic School is available on Apple Podcasts by like, the time and the date that I was going to launch it," right? And two hours, I- and I folded it up and I put it in my pocket. And two hours later, I got the email that I could access my account. I submitted it. And within like, I was told it usually takes like 72 hours to get it reviewed. Before midnight, it was approved and put on Apple podcasts and it launched on Apple podcasts that next morning. 

Kim: Yay!

Vervain:  And I was so excited. I was, and I, I literally like, it was one of those things that you want to be really careful about saying like, "I can't believe it." Right. Cause I'm always like paranoid that if I say I can't believe it, like suddenly the blessings that were just given, it's like, no, no, no, I, I, I can believe this. I choose to believe this, but wow. What a miracle. I do believe this, thank you! 

Kim: How do you feel that witchcraft has changed your life, either good or bad? Or good and bad?

Vervain:  I have not a clue in the world. I have no idea what my life would look like if I hadn't gone down whatever this path is. I've always been out- like I've never known how to engage normally with other people. Like I still, I feel like I've kind of learned the motions of how to get to know people, but it still feels like following a IKEA assembly instructions.

Kim: Mm-hmm. 

Vervain: And so I don't know if I had never found magic, how that would have played out, or I don't know if it's even possible for someone who, like I was just always more comfortable talking to myself than other people. And I guess that became talking to spirit. And that, I think that the, that's really where a lot of it started for me. And I don't know if there is an alternate timeline where that doesn't happen in my brain, if that makes sense. So I don't know. When I think about who I am, like if I had to pick one word to describe who I am, that one word is always witch. And I know that that doesn't help that much, because it means so many different things to so many different people, but like... it's the only word that encompasses all of the things that it means to me, and it also it feels like something that is true about me across lifetimes. I don't have any past life memories or anything, I've never done any past life regression or anything, but I just, I have this feeling that like whatever I've been before, it's always been some form of witch. So I don't know if there is a path for me that's not that. All paths lead home, you know? I guess, what is it? Well, I guess I have a song about this but it's not released so no one would know what I'm talking about anyway. 

Kim: What has been the most surprising thing about being a witch? 

Vervain: When the magic works. 

Kim: *laughs*

Vervain: Yeah, I think, well that and I think like how natural it feels. And I don't know, like it feels so natural that I don't know if I've ever really taken the time to be surprised by it, but I think I spent so long at the beginning of being introduced to the world of true magic, and studying it and learning about it and, you know, god forbid maybe possibly even trying to practice it, that I had all these ideas about what it meant to do it right, and to do it for real, and you know, correct, proper or correct ways to do things. And I feel like those, I mean, the methods, the tips, the techniques, the spells, whatever, it can all be helpful, but it can also get between us and the magic. And I think that I spent so long thinking that I had to learn certain techniques, or that I had to master certain tools or certain skills, when really the only things that I had to master were honesty and consistency. And I think I've mastered, well, okay, I think I'm really close to mastering honesty and I'm nowhere even close to mastering consistency. But you know, finding that I don't need the books or whatever. And I don't think that any of us do. And the books are there. As a writer of books, I say this also. Like, the books are there for inspiration and for additional perspective. But like, you don't need them. You don't need the wands. You don't need the crystals.

Kim:  So this is a good segue into my next question, which is what would you tell someone just starting out? And what would you like to hear from somebody who has more experience than you do currently? 

Vervain: I would tell someone just starting out that they should not be afraid to start, but to start slow. Because I think a lot of us, and I've definitely done both, have like, tend to either feel like we have to wait until we're ready and we know everything before we can start, or tend to like take on ten things all at once when we get excited about something. And you'll never get good at magic if you don't start. But also, like the likelihood of anything working when you're starting something, when you're first starting to make magic, if you do try to divide your energy between like 15 different goals all at once, the likelihood of any of those actually manifesting is pretty low because focus is such an important ingredient, right? So I guess I would say don't be afraid to start, but one thing at a time. And then what I would like to hear, I thought about this one and I really had to think about this one for a while. And I realized that what I would really like to hear from somebody who is more experienced than me is just affirmation that the work that I do is important and that the value that I provide is... 

Kim: Real and actual value?

Vervain:  Yeah, yeah. Unique and valuable. I'm struggling with the word unique. I'm not sure if that's really a word that I want to use here, but I think I'm just going to use it and then whatever. 

Kim: Makes sense. 

Vervain: Yeah, and, but yeah, just to know that like, because you know, I have, I have moments of faith of like, you know, when I, when I really experience, when I can see that I've touched someone else, you know, or I can see that somebody else is filled with joy over having learned something or over having, you know, something clicked because of something that I said, or, you know, having given someone an experience that touched them, or when I'm playing music, if I make somebody cry, like that's the best. It's like the most rewarding. And so I have those moments of like, oh yeah, this is definitely worth it. I'm definitely doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And then all the moments in the back room, it's like, should I get a real job? Like, should I just finish my damn degree? Should I tear, like, what am I doing? And does anyone care about it? And I actually have an affirmation card from one of Louise Hay's old decks put up on the hutch above my desk right here. I'm looking at it right now. It says, "There are people looking for exactly what I have to offer, and we are being brought together on the checkerboard of life." I needed to hear that. And so I would love to hear that from actual people and not just from an affirmation card over my desk. But I need to hear it bad enough that I'm willing to hear it from an affirmation card over my desk. 

Kim: I think you will now.

Vervain: Thank you. 

Kim: How do you feel that social media affects your practice and how do you feel you've used social media to affect others? 

Vervain: I... that is such a, that's another complicated question because it's another one of those that's like what's the, what's the alternate timeline look like? I have no idea. You know? I, I hope that I use it to inspire and educate other people. I hope that other people see my content and come away feeling like they have more resources or more faith with which to approach their life or their day or whatever. I want people to feel empowered by what I share, and uplifted by what I share. And I hope that that's what I do. I don't know, I make it. So I've never been the person who consumes my own content. I don't know if it successfully does that, but I hope that's what it does. 

Kim: Do you feel like you owe anything to your followers or your listeners? 

Vervain: I feel like I owe it to them to deliver on the promises that I've made. I don't feel like I owe anything to someone just because I'm a content creator and they're a follower or whatever. 

Kim: Thank you. 

Vervain: And I also hate those words. But I do feel like, I mean, I've made a number of promises in my tenure on social media, and I do feel the need to deliver on those. And some of those I guess are really more like promises that I've made to customers, because I somebody has to take a step further than just being a follower to actually be owed what what I feel like I owe them. But you know anyone who's... like I definitely feel like I owe it to my my two Patreon supporters and my one friend who just like PayPal'd me 20 bucks out of nowhere the other day, just saying like, "Hey, this is to support your music." We all need someone cheering for us. I know. So I feel like I owe it to those three people especially to like make my album and put it out there. And I would not be surprised if there's a dark night where like those three people are the, you know, thing that like keeps me going a little bit longer. But just because somebody hit follow on my page, no I don't feel like I owe them anything. 

Kim: What do you love about the witch community? 

Vervain: What do I love about the witch community? There are things that I love about the...

KIm: *laughs* I was like crap, am I gonna have to delete this one?

Vervain:  Let me say this. There are many things. I love witches. I'm somebody, I love persons and I'm not really into people, you know? Persons, yes. People as like a collective, difficult. But like individuals? Beautiful, sacred, in love. And so I love coming across people, other people, in the practice of magic, who are willing and excited and enthusiastic to share their practice and to share their knowledge. Even... No, I'm not going to finish that sentence. But I love seeing that. I love seeing this exchange of ideas and of creative energy. I love seeing that. And there's a "but," but I know the other half of the question is like, what do you not like? Or what do you hate? Or what angers you?

 Kim: I actually was not going to go into that if you don't want to talk about it. We don't have to go into that because we just dove into some crap just now, so I'm good with it. I'm leaving it off. 

Vervain: Well... 

Kim: Unless you want to. 

Vervain: I do want to say a little something. I don't... And that's just that... I don't really understand, I guess, the idea of "the witch community."

Like, I'm not necessarily convinced that there is such a thing? Like, sure, there are a lot of witches on the internet sharing information, but like, is it a community? I don't know. Like, to me, a community is a group of people who are there for each other. And I've definitely, there definitely exist communities of witches that fit that definition, but is there like one overarching one? I don't know. There seems to be like a lot of competition for what would feel like a community to me, I guess, and I guess I don't really understand relationships, as I've said. Like, it's hard for me. I think I get it, a little bit, with some people. But I guess I don't know if it's that I don't know how to be part of a community, or if it's that I just don't know what that feels like, or if it's that people are putting the word community on something here that isn't really that. So it's up to you whether you want to put that in or not. But those are my thoughts. 

Kim: I think this is my favorite answer that I've ever gotten. 

Vervain: Well then I guess you can keep it. 

Kim: Because I thought holy shit what? I love when people make me question my reality. I mean I hate it but I love it. Who would you say are the three biggest influences on your practice? 

Vervain: Definitely spirit first, my gods first. I get a lot of like, "Hey, this is what you need to do," from them. Which is not to say that I just blindly take orders, but, you know, there's a lot of trust built up there to get to that point, but definitely the biggest influence is, is, I'm lumping it into one category, but spirit. And then, like individual people, I don't know. I feel like I, definitely... like the people that I spend a lot of time with influence me a lot. So I'm not sure it would be like anyone that anyone's heard of, but my old roommate Laura and my friend Abigail are both very magical people who, there's a lot of creative exchange that has gone on there and that goes on there about magic and our magical experiences. 
And like when we do magic together also, like that, the way that that flows and like things get integrated into my practice because they came up in something that we did together and it felt really good or because, you know, someone told me, you know, one of my friends told me. I learn a lot from the witches in oil coven as well. Like we have a discord and we exchange a lot of ideas and information and there's always somebody talking about, it's my favorite thing because people, it is always somebody talking about something that's like, oh, I was doing this thing that I always do. And you're like, wait, hold on. You're talking about this like this is just a given, but I've never heard of this. I want to know more about this. Please tell me what this is.
 And, again, I'm struggling to come up with any examples but definitely, yeah, definitely like the other Oil Coven members. My friend Sam, my friend Abigail, those people are really big influences for me. I would actually, I would probably have to say Don Miguel Ruiz, actually, the author of the Four Agreements has been...

Kim: That's a good one.

Vervain: ...probably the number one human influence in my practice, actually, now that I'm thinking about it. Like those four agreements guide me every single day and I think that, I mean, they apply to all quarters of life, but they apply really well to magic. And, um, yeah, yeah, that's a, that's a really big influence. So if you haven't read the book, the four agreements, it takes like an hour and a half to read and it costs $5. So do that. 

Kim: Get it. 

Vervain: Yeah. 

KIm: Who would you like to see on the show and hear them talk like this? Well, I would actually love to see Sam and Abigail on here. I'll tell you who they are. Abigail is earthangelabigail on Instagram. She's also in oil coven, she does lymphatic massage. She does a lot of angelic work. She's taught me a lot about conscious language and choosing words carefully. I've learned so much about that from, again, not necessarily from her teaching, but just from being around her and seeing how she lives, and asking questions about, why do you say, because she'll say things like, I choose to know instead of I don't know. And just asking her questions, like why do you say this? And it's like, well, she's like, I don't wanna reinforce the idea that I don't have access to this information. I wanna open myself to the idea that this information could come to me at any time. And that sort of thing has really changed the way that I approach, well, speaking and writing. And then, yeah, I would love to see her on here. Oh, I would love to see Luciana on here from The Possibility Department. She is just one of my favorite humans and one of my favorite witches. She's really cool and I think you'd like her. I think everyone would like her. Yeah, those are my answers. 

Kim: Is there anything that you wanted to talk about that I didn't ask you?

Vervain: I always want to talk about everything. I mean I'd love to talk about music, I'd love to talk about tea, I'd love to talk about all sorts of things, but there's a time and a place for everything, so. I am really excited about my music, though, and I do think that that, like that is, if people do, if we don't have time to go into it now and people do want to hear about it, I do plan on putting together an episode on my podcast this season about making magic through through music, or how music is magic for me. But it's, it's like... writing music is the primary way that I like process emotional experiences, and like playing it is always like casting a spell. Like whether it's just over me or over other people who are listening. 

Kim: Oh shit! I just had a realization!

Vervain:  Okay. 

Kim: Because I was thinking that sounds like arcane witchcraft that I cannot understand. But then when you said the second, like having music in your head just baffles me. I don't understand it. I cannot fathom it. But when you said the thing about playing the music as a spell, I was like, oh shit, that's like when I make jewelry. 

Vervain: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

Kim: Okay, now I see. 

Vervain: Well and it's like, I never like set out to cast spells while playing music. It was more like I would finish playing a song and then the entire room would be like in the same energy of like, it's hard to describe, but like a lot of my songs are sad. *laughs* And a lot of my songs are very, I guess, very philosophical. And I guess I really try to deal with... the main thing that I process through songwriting is this nature of reality as this double sided coin of both beauty and tragedy, right? Where it's like, you cannot deny the absolute beauty of this world that we're living in, and also you cannot deny how absolutely fucked up it is. And through all that, I choose to stay here, and I think it's worth it to be here. And that's, I think, the main thing that I try to get across. And I've seen at the end of, like, I'll play a song for a room full of people, and at the end it's just silence, and you can tell like everyone is thinking. And that's a really good feeling. And then if you can see tears on any of their faces, that's a better feeling. And so that, I kind of like came to this awareness of like, oh, I'm like, putting people through something. Like I'm not just sharing thoughts that I have in music, I'm walking people through that thought process in a way, in music, which is a way that a lot of people... A lot of people will let music touch them emotionally in a way that they won't let regular conversation do. 

Kim: Yeah. Or they can't. 

Vervain: Perhaps. Perhaps. I don't know if I believe that. 

Kim: People are scary. Music is not as scary. 

Vervain: Right, but when we put up walls, that's a choice. 

Kim: Okay- 

Vervain: Or it's a trauma response, but it's still something. But you can, as somebody who, when I told you at the beginning of this recording, I was like, oh, I'm really good at setting boundaries. I'm really really good at setting boundaries. I have a really hard time putting my boundaries down and letting people in. And I will actually say that actually sharing music is a big way that I let people in, I feel like I can say things in songs that I don't feel like I can say in like just an Instagram caption. Because I have the excuse of creative license, you know, it's like I don't have to tell you what is real and what's creative license. And like I think about the GK Chesterton quote that like "Fairy tales exist not to tell us that dragons are real but to tell us that they can be defeated."

Kim:  Oh God, I'm gonna cry. What the fuck? 

Vervain: It's a good one, right? And So I think that like, you know, the point of what I share in those songs is not to like share with anyone like any one particular experience that I had, whether it was real or not, but to share with people the greater truth behind that experience or behind the story. 

Kim: Dang it! Okay. 

Vervain: Thank you for asking. 

Kim: Thanks for answering. So at the end, I have two things that are not actually questions. Would you please recommend something to my listeners? 

Vervain: Yes. Oh gosh, okay. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna recommend two forms of plant magic to people who might feel like plant magic... If you feel like plant magic is not for you because you are like me and you do not grow things well, um, the first way that I got really into plant magic was through Gong Fu Cha. Through really good, single origin, farm direct, single varietal Chinese tea. And the way that it's... Gong Fu Cha is a style of pouring and of course, it's only worth doing that style of pouring if you're using really good tea. So I love the really good tea. 
But this style of pouring allows you to experience the energy of the mountain that the tea comes from. It allows you to experience the energy that the tea master put into the leaves through the roasting process, and it allows you to experience the energy and the flavors of like the plant itself. And like every different varietal of tea plant has totally different energy. And that was my first foray into plant magic, and it completely changed my life. And I would totally recommend that you drink some Gong Fu Cha if you can, if you can find somewhere else where they pour it. They do have, there are tea houses in a lot of major cities. 
My favorite here in Austin is West China Tea, which is run by my friend So Han, and it's just absolutely amazing. So I really recommend that. And then like the other way that I've, other than by like talking to plants that grow feral on my property, is through oil magic. And I really would recommend oil magic to anyone. It's one of those things that it's like, even if you don't believe in the magic, essential oils smell so good. And I just, I love them. They smell good and they do... that's another one of those things where like, if you, you can... You can go down the path of trying to like scientifically explain why certain oils do X, Y, Z. And I think you can find a lot of evidence that does show that.
 But also like the link between, we come back to psychology, the link between smell and emotional memory is so strong that you can create links between smells and emotional memories using magical visualization and oils. They are my primary tool for changing consciousness at will at this point. That is something that I never thought... That sort of relationship with such a broad variety of plant magic is something that I never thought that I would have access to as somebody who doesn't really understand herbalism and certainly doesn't really understand gardening or farming or anything. 

Kim: I have a request. 

Vervain: Okay, what's your request?

Kim: And you can say no, if this is proprietary and you were going to talk about something else that's yours.  Well, I don't remember what it was, something blue on your big toe. Can you please explain that? 

Vervain: It was Blue Tansy and oh my gosh, yes. Okay, so I've been thinking about talking about this more and I really want to talk about it because it was such a crazy experience. And I will, yeah, I probably will talk about this on my podcast later. I probably will talk about this in a book later and I don't mind talking about it multiple times because I thought it was so cool. Blue tansy is actually an oil that I... I don't know if I would have been able to bring myself to buy it for myself because it is such an expensive oil. But it's also, just like rose, it's one of those where it's like now that I've worked with it, I'm like okay, I understand. And I will pay the money to like get a new one when I run out of this. 
But so blue tansy, it's a flower oil, which is part of why it's so expensive. The flower oils, like the oils that are actually distilled from flower petals, you tend to need a much higher volume of plant material to get the same amount of essential oil. And so that's a lot of times why those are so expensive and they require really careful handling. But blue tansy is specifically, well, it's linked to a lot of things. One of the things that it's linked to that was the thing that came, that stood out to me the most through this practice of Tansy Toes, was its associations with stimulating creativity. And the foot, I forget what it's called, maybe Vitaflex? There's like, I think that's what they're called. I don't really know a lot about it, but there's like Vitaflex points all over the bottom of the foot, apparently. 

Kim: Reflexology? 

Vervain: Maybe. Like I said, I'm not an expert on the area around this. I just know... what happened was a bunch of people in Oil Coven and then also in our sister groups were like, hey, I'm going to do this thing. So I actually, I earned a bottle of blue tansy is what I should have said when I said that I wouldn't have bought it. I had it because I had earned it through doing my business. And so when I saw that they were going to do this Tansy Toes, I was like, okay, I'm, this will be good for me because I've been not wanting to use too much of it, you know, and I feel like you, you know, you can't, you don't get the magic if you don't use it. Right. And it is also, it's one of those, it's also really, really good for skincare. Like people use it for face masks or I know people put it in their shampoo to make like toned shampoo for platinum hair. 

Kim: They put it on their......Okay, I have this vision of people putting it on their faces and Smurftown happens. *laughs* 

Vervain: You want to do it at night. You want to do it at night because yes, you're right. But if you do it at night, it'll be gone by the next morning. 

Kim: Okay.

Vervain: Okay so they said we're going to do this thing for 30 days. It's called Tansy Toes. We're going to put a drop of blue tansy on the bottom of our big toes every morning for 30 days. And the bottom of your big toe, like the middle of it, is supposed to be the VitaFlex point that's linked to the brain. So it was just kind of like, we had a group chat on Facebook where we were all going to share with each other what our experiences were. And literally the week that I started putting the blue tansy on my toes, was the week that I had the creative energy to buckle down and actually plan out most of the first season of my podcast, and actually like get it to- like I had- the first day that I did Tansy Toes or maybe it was the second- it was like one of the first three days that I did Tansy Toes, I remember I was literally up till like five in the morning just writing down ideas and just going, going, going. 
And it was every time I would be like, okay, we gotta put the pen down, we gotta go to bed, then another idea would come. I'd be like, no, I gotta take advantage of this. I'm gonna regret it later if I don't write these things down. And I very much found throughout that whole 30 days that I had elevated creative energy. And blue tansy also is an ingredient in a bunch of the oils that I use really regularly for tangentially related things. Like I use a Focus Pocus blend that has, it's rosemary and Kid Power, but Kid Power has Valor in it, or not Valor, sorry, Kid Power has blue tansy in it. And that Focus Pocus potion, like I put it on my temples right before this because I wanted to be able to be focused and have my attention on this recording and be fully present. And with my brain being the way that it is, I find that this really helps me. I always keep it by my desk here. And it's like I started to understand, like, oh, that makes sense. It's probably the blue tansy in that that's helping to specifically help my creative focus. 
So the other thing about the 30 days is that your body does adjust and kind of develop a, I don't know if tolerance is the right word because it's not the same thing exactly, but your body will adjust if you're using the same oils really regularly over time.  So you do want to switch it up every now and then. So I did like stop, I would say after 30 days I was getting like less results from the Blue Tansy, but then I would still use it like once a week or so if I felt like I, you know, if I had a day off and I was like okay I want to be, I want to have my creative energy on point today, but I would love to do another 30 days of it sometime in the future after I've had a break. Yeah, anyhow, that was a really long answer, but that's the answer. It was so cool. I was so cool seeing like everybody else's reaction and the group chat, like what their experiences were in the group chat. 
And then there was one person who was sharing that they had had like, like before they ever knew about this, long ago, they had had some personal, like, I don't know if it was like a vision or a dream or whatever, but somebody had told them in a vision or a dream or a journey or something, that like blue tansy was what was used to wash, oh, who washes whose feet in the Bible? But it was in that, in various stories of foot wa-, I think it was not even just like one particular instance. It was like this was part of, like this flower was part of what they used. And I don't know if that's true, or if it was just a way of communicating like, hey, this energy that was present in that ritual is also present in this flower. So who knows? But I found it really interesting, and I definitely found it to be a worthwhile experience. And I will also say I made a roller, and a lot of us did. So instead of putting a straight drop of Blue Tansy, I put 30 drops of Blue Tanzy in a 5ml roller and diluted it and then just used a bunch of it on the bottoms of both my big toes each morning. And it did last longer than 30 days, so I wasn't getting a full drop a day, but I don't think you need a full drop a day. A drop is actually a lot. 

Kim: I just remember seeing that and thinking that sounded really cool. And thank you for explaining that and going into how it worked. 

Vervain: My pleasure. Oils are one of those things where it's like I, even having written a book about it, I feel like I know less than 10% of what there is to know about it. And it's like, I'm just, I'm really choosing to lean on the idea that you only have to be one step ahead of someone else to help them up the stairs. And that you don't have to know everything about something to help someone else. You just have to know something that they don't know. And yeah, I just, I'm constantly exposed to like new information and new ideas. And you know, some of it, it's like, that sounds like bullshit. But then some of it, it's like, that sounds like something that could work really well for me. And then sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. But the ones that do, it's really, really cool. And it's different for every people. 

Kim: Calcium channels sound like bullshit. But they're real. 

Vervain: I've never even heard of that. 

Kim: It's some whacked out shit in your heart that they found a jillion years ago. That shit sounds make-believe but it's real. 

Vervain: I feel like humanity as like this whole earth thing it all sounds make-believe. It makes magic a lot easier to believe and when you realize how ridiculous all the stuff that we take for granted is. 

Kim: It has something to do with your heart beating.

Vervain: Fascinating. 

Kim: It's real weird. Everybody take a class in anatomy and physiology because that shit's crazy. The last thing is will you please tell me a story that you love to tell? 

Vervain: A story that I love to tell? I will, and I'm nervous about telling this story. I've never, well I think I have told this in like a public forum before but I'm still nervous every time. I still feel like they're gonna go back and like re-fire me or whatever. 

*both laugh*

Vervain: So I used to work on a farm. I don't know what the fuck I was thinking, because like I don't know if you've seen me, but like, I am not field crew material. 

Kim: You're not husky. 

Vervain: No. And like, I remember calling my dad and telling him that I, I got this job on this farm and he was like, "Are you sure about that? Like, you really want to do that?" But I was in this place where like, I would not quit. Like I refused to quit. And I kind of, like part of it was just like proving to myself that I could. 

Kim: Yeah, I know that life. 

Vervain: Yeah. Yeah. Anyhow. So that was my life. And we were, it was also the rainy season and it was really muddy. And so we weren't actually using like tractors or anything. So it was too much mud. So it was all, everything we were doing by hand and on foot. And, it was hard, hard ass work. And I was also, at this point in time, just beginning to dive really deep with the runes. And I, we were planting a bunch of plants, or weeding, maybe we're weeding. I'm spending a lot of time in the dirt at the base of a bunch of plants, we're weeding. And I thought, well, I want to use the runes to do something magical to support these plants in their growth. And I thought, well, what do plants need to grow? Well, they need water. So let's use the rune Laguz. And let's put the rune Laguz at the base of every plant that I weed today in the dirt. Let's just, you know, use a little stick and scratch this rune in the dirt at the foot of every plant that I weed today. 
And I did that, and that was my last workday that week, and that weekend the rains came and flooded the fields and washed away the crop, and they laid off the entire field crew, except like one person who was not me. And that was when I realized that like one of the literal definitions of the rune Lagus is lake. And that's one of those things that it's like "Did I... Was that... Like would that have happened anyway, or was that me?" and I take great comfort in the fact that no one will ever be able to prove that it was me because I feel some guilt about that, but it's also the thing that has like... I feel like that was a real turning point in my understanding of magic because I had really been walking the fence, like walking the line before then about like really only believing in magic that I could explain away. And like, kind of thinking like, "There might be more, but I'm not willing to commit to believing in more." And then that happened and I still wasn't ready to commit to believing in more but I was like "Okay this is, we can't we can't just be like throwing runes around willy-nilly anymore. We need to be careful.
 And so when I say also that like, what I would say to someone just starting out is don't be afraid to start, but start slow. It's like maybe if you're gonna try supporting a plant and its growth by carving a rune, maybe you do that with like one plant, and... One rune, and one plant. Maybe rather than carving the lake rune under like 300 plants in one field, maybe just start small and see what happens. So that's my story. That's how I came to like really believe in the runes, I think. Because I had felt really drawn to them for a while, but it was always like, okay, they're like symbols, whatever. And then after that I was like, okay, these are not to be trifled with. And then there's another thing that's like, "Did I do that? I don't know." 
Cause there was one at my work, I work at Starbucks and one of my coworkers, this was years ago, I like found that one of our urns, our coffee urns was broken at the end of the night, one night and I was like, "Hey, like this is cracked." And the supervisors, this was before I was a supervisor, but the supervisor at the time, he was joking when he was like, "Oh, you broke it." And then he like, as a joke, went and like told the whole morning crew that I broke it, but like, I'm like, I'm, they probably knew that he was joking, but I was like, hey, like, they don't know me, they don't work with me, they don't know I would never, like, they don't know who, what kind of person I am, you can't just be like saying this shit to people. And I made it clear that I was a little upset. Well, literally, the next day, that same guy dropped and broke it. And again, it's one of those things where it's like, revenge is beneath me, but accidents do happen. And I'm not saying I did it. I'm just saying it happened.

KIm: Maybe don't talk crap about me, buddy.

Vervain: Yeah.

Kim: Well thanks for being on the show.

Vervain: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been a joy and a pleasure. I've gotten my laughs in for the day, or at least for the first half of the day. 

KIm: Yay. Then I will see you on Instagram. 

Vervain: Yes, you shall. Thank you so much. 

KimThank you. Bye. 

Vervain: Have a wonderful day. Bye-bye. 

Kim: You too. Once again, it is review time! This one is from an Amazon customer who says, "One of my faves. This podcast is fantastic! I love the style of interview and look forward to new episodes and the great stories. It's great hearing about all the different thoughts and views. 10 out of 10." Well thank you, an Amazon listener! I appreciate your input. Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of Your Average Witch. You can find us all around the internet on Instagram @YourAverageWitchPodcast, Twitter at Average Witch Pod, Facebook at Facebook.com/youraveragewitchpodcast, at YourAverageWitch.com, and at your favorite podcast service. Want to help the podcast grow? Leave a review. You can review us on Amazon and Apple Podcasts, and now you can rate us on Spotify. You just might hear your review read at the end of the next episode. To rate Your Average Witch on Spotify, click the home key, click on Your Average Witch podcast, and then leave a rating. You can also support the show by going to patreon.com/cleverkimscurios. If you'd like to recommend someone for the podcast, like to be on it yourself, or if you'd like to advertise on the podcast, send an email to youraveragewitchpodcast at gmail.com. Thanks for listening and I'll see you when the moon changes.