To wrap up this lovely month of revisiting past interviews (and my birth), I'm bringing back WBAH- this time it's Macy's turn. Macy and I talk about impostor syndrome, practical magic, and some real good stuff about canines. 

Next week is June, and that's Pride month! Be sure to come back for a month full of amazing interviews spotlighting the LGBTQIA+ community.

Birthday Month Remix: Macy Anise of the Witch Bitch Amateur Hour and Macy Anise Yoga

Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where every Tuesday we talk about witch life, witch stories and sometimes a little witchcraft. To wrap up this lovely month of my birth and revisiting past interviews, I'm bringing back WBAH. This time it's Macy's turn. Macy and I talk about imposter syndrome, practical magic, and some really good stuff about canines. Yeah, dogs. Next week, we'll be in June and that's Pride Month. Be sure to come back for a full month of amazing interviews spotlighting the LGBTQIA+ community. Now, let's get to the stories. 
Kim: Welcome, Macy. I'm very glad to have you here. Super excited to talk to you.

Macy: I'm excited to be here. I've been looking forward to it so much. So so much now, over a few weeks, and I'm ready. I'm ready for us to just to just chat, man. 

Kim: Me too. And thank you for coming. 

Macy: Of course. 

Kim: So please introduce yourself. Let the people know who you are, what you do, hit those socials if you want to. 

Macy: Okay. See, this is where we start seeing my lack of ability of being able to talk about myself. This is going to be a good time. I am Macy from the- 50% of the Witch Bitch Amateur Hour. I do that show along with my cousin/essential sister, at this point, Charlye, and we're a couple of witches. (laughs) And we just started a podcast about our journey, and we bring topics every week, just kind of what we're feeling or what we're looking into. And we talk about them, and those topics do get discussed in and out of a whole bunch of streams of other bullshit that we cover along the way as we grasp to stay on topic. 

Kim: That's what we're there for. (Macy laughs) Bullshit.

Macy: I'm so glad. Thank goodness, honestly. But yeah, so that's the podcast again. It's Witch Bitch Amateur Hour. You can find us over on Instagram at witchbitchamateurhour. We're on Facebook as well. You can just search the title or go to @witch amateur hour. And we have a slammin' coven over there, Facebook group, that's a good ass time. 

Kim: It's actually my favorite thing about Facebook. 

Macy: It's mine too, like I don't scroll my timeline. I don't like to go there. It's not a good place. So, but I do, I like have it purely for that group. So I'll like open the app and like hit the groups and it's like that's my immediate motion and I go straight to the coven and the Patreon coven. It's just a great time. And you're a mod, which is great. Thank you for that. Thank you for your service. 

Kim: Oh, no. Well, thanks for having me. (both laugh) Who would you say your podcast is for? 

Macy: See, that's a tough question because Charlye and me talk about sometimes how we don't even under- we don't know that. We don't know why people listen to us. But if I had to guess, I think it's, I would, of course, I would hit on the beginners aspect. Just but at the same time, I mean, maybe not like total beginners, because we've like made several mistakes along the way, but just people who are perhaps interested but intimidated, I guess is what I would say. If you're really, really interested in the metaphysical, and it is very, very, very overwhelming, and if you're a bit intimidated and perhaps maybe a bit alone-feeling in where to start and all of that, I would say it's good for that. It's a really laid back podcast. The Coven's a very laid back place. We don't think too highly of ourselves. And we just like to talk. It's me and my cousin having conversations in small, tiny rooms. And you get what you get, out of that. But I think, I've heard, that it gives people a sense of community and things like that. 

Kim: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. If you're a solo, if you're a solitary witch, but you still want community, this is it. This is where you go. 

Macy: That makes me really, really happy to hear. And we started it out, not like specifically for that reason, like, you know, we didn't start out at all to be like, "We're going to be successful!" We didn't think that for two god damn seconds, but... But we did start it just to see who else was out there, you know, like just to kind of speak out into the void and see if there's others out there who were like us and were trying to find their way and things like that. And it's just amazing that that evolved to it just being this place that's connected a lot of people. 

Kim: How did you get the money? Since I started this like 10 minutes ago, I know I had a bunch of the stuff already because I do YouTube and other random things, but it didn't seem like you guys did that. How did you get funding for this? 

Macy: We started as cheap as you physically, humanly possibly could. We are so deadly serious. When we talk about it on the podcast every now and again, just like describing the setup of our first recording. And it is as bare bones almost as you can get. Like we basically – I had a computer at the time, like a MacBook. It was a 2013 that I got with a scholarship from high school and I still have it. 

Kim: Congratulations. 

Macy: Oh, thank you. It served me well. And we bought a couple of those little blue snowball mics. They're like 50 bucks each. And it could not handle my voice and I blew it out immediately. But we got a couple of those and that's pretty much it. Like, I mean, we basically, that was like a purchase and, you know, we of course got like, you know, we didn't even have mic arms yet. Like we just literally bought a couple of snowballs and used a free recording software and then just had to pay out a little bit of money for hosting and stuff like that. But I mean, we, we started very, very, very bare bones. So, I mean, it's like, that's one thing I do like to talk about is that it is absolutely possible to be that completely just brand new to it and it still, it still pan out. 

Kim: I will say that having heard other people recently who also start like that, you guys did a great job editing. I'm learning how hard that is. 

Macy: It is. 

Kim: It's not like video. 

Macy: No, because with audio editing, your mind just wants to fuck off so hard, or at least mine does. And so it's like, you know, you're trying to listen and you're listening for any, you know, because we like to take out any, even if it's minor things like little sniffs and throat clears, just because sometimes that can take you out of the lull that a conversation can put you in. And, you know, so it's like, you're trying to listen for those, but then you start like, I don't know, thinking about literally anything else. And that's where I run into trouble. And so I usually, I'm pretty good, like I'll sit down and I'll edit an episode usually in one or two sittings. I like to, like, make it, I set the time down, I make some tea and I'm like, all right. But at the same time, it usually takes longer still than it should because half that time I'm having to go back five minutes and be like "What the fuck were we talking about?" you know. And have to, because I do, I zone out a lot. So I... editing, editing's a fun time. 

Kim: You recognize those "ums" though.

Macy: (roars) I say it SO. MUCH. I say it so much that I know what the waveform looks like. 

Kim: Yeah, that's what I mean. You recognize it. 

Macy: Yeah, I don't even, I just see it and I'm like mmm. And I'll just highlight it and take it out and it's just like, man, I throw those down. Yeah, no, I feel you. I feel you on that. But it's exciting. I'm glad you're doing this. Like it, I'm so pro starting a podcast. It's just such a, it's a fun project to do.

Kim: It seems likeit.  I'm having a good time. 

Macy: It is. And this is a fun thing. You just get to talk to people. I really, that's cool. You're going to get some cool stories.

Kim:  I hope so. That's what I want. I'm here for the stories, man. 

Macy: The stories, man. I get it. 

Kim: Now, I Googled you because...

Macy:  Oh my God. 

Kim: ...I want to be like Sean Evans and ask the deep questions and have them say, Oh my God, what a good question. You did your job. 

Macy: Yeah, I'm still in shock that I've been Googled. Oh. 

Kim: And so I saw what you did in the past. How did you move from marketing to this? 

Macy: A solid bit of being completely disenchanted. I went to business school. I have a business degree with an emphasis in marketing. And so naturally that's, you know, what my jam was. It was like, well, I'm going to work in marketing and it's going to be great. And, you know, you're in college and you don't, you're still, you know, still very young, I'm still young, but like you're younger then, and, you know, I was just, I grew up in the country and even though I always felt, you know, totally at peace here. I had it in my head, like, "I'm so made for the city, I got to live in the city and I got to like, I got to like get in there. I've just got to get in there." You know. 

Kim: Really? 

Macy: Yes. 

Kim: That's shocking. 

Macy: I know. Well, it did not end well. And so I got a job, like big Fortune 500 company. It was like I landed it, and I was super excited about it. And it was my first big girl job. And I got my apartment in the city. It was a cute ass apartment and I set it up exactly how I wanted, which that part was cool. Living alone for the first time is a very special part of your life. You know, it's very memorable. And, but marketing was really, really fucking lame. And it was not what I thought, you know. Because as an artist, I was like more of a creative marketer, you know, and that, and corporate marketing and like creative marketing are, could not be more different. They're so far on the other side of each other. And so I realized really quickly that not only was that good for me, but neither was the city. Like, I mean, it was just, I was a rat in a cage. I hated it so, so much. And I wasn't even like in the thick of it. Like I lived in a sprawling complex of older apartments that had like lawns and I just lived with old people, which was great. And even that was making me like claw at the walls, you know. I just needed space. And so then we, I was able to land a position at an animal sanctuary for marketing. 

Kim: Yeah, explain that. 

Macy: So Hunter and me, he had graduated. He was a semester, I graduated a semester early, so he came a semester later. And we had lived together for, I think, about a year at this point. And we just both knew we were so burned out by what we were doing, and by the city. And he grew up in the city, but living in a rural college town, he kind of fell in love with the country. And so we were just like, we've got to get the fuck out of here. Like, this is just bad news. And it was, I was able to find, I was looking for jobs, you know, which is never a fun time ever. And I was just looking for jobs and looking for jobs. And I found a marketing position for an animal sanctuary. And I was like, well, all right, like that I could get behind. Like, that would be pretty sweet. And we knew that we were wanting to come out this way. And at that time we had been, it was made aware to us that we could buy the house that we now have, you know? And so we were like, all right, well, we got, let's do it. Let's make the move out there and let's, let's do this. And so I was able to land that first, you know. And I went ahead and moved out this way, and he stayed in the city until he, you know, so we kind of had to like do that whole shit. But I started working there, and it was still marketing. I still didn't love it. It was still, and it was social media marketing, which I don't love. 

Kim: That's kind of funny. (laughs)

Macy:  I'm bad at it. Like, I know what I'm supposed to do. I know how it works. Like, I get it, but I hate... I'm a Luddite, man. 

Kim: Yes, that's why I laughed.

Macy:  Oh, dude. And so I did pretty well, you know? And my job was like fundraising and whatnot and all that. I'm a good writer, so I wrote, you know, kind of like what all was going on and fundraising and whatnot. But the animals were cool. That was cool. You know, I got to work around exotic animals very, very, very closely. And that was, I'll never forget that. Like, that was cool. It was, these animals are just absolutely unbelievable. 

Kim: What was your favorite experience there? 

Macy: There's a few. There's one that's really gross, but it's just so ridiculous and to even say that this has happened to anyone. But there are... 

Kim: I think I know what you're going to say. 

Macy: Well, there was a hyena. 

Kim: Oh! (gasps) That's my favorite!

Macy: Yeah, she was so amazing. She was a spotted hyena and built like a Mack truck, man. She was so fascinating to look at. I thought she was cute. A lot of people thought she was hideous, but I thought she was incredible. And she was disgusting, though. Like, she was a nasty, nasty, nasty creature and loved all things disgusting. She wallowed in filth, and it made her life pure. And so basically what she would do every day, and this is in the hot summer, she had a ritual. She would, because of what she was, like the cuts of meat that she could get had fucking bones and shit. You know, she could get like the femurs and you know, because she's a hyena, it didn't make a difference. 

Kim: Yeah, they got that jaw strength.

Macy: You can't feed that shit all to a tiger, or very much of it. And, or not too much of it. And so she would get all that. And so what she would do, like every single day is that she would go and she would like grab some sort of big hunk of unmentionable, like a, like a whole leg of whatever. And she would put it, she had a little water pool, like a little water trough that she'd get. And you just like see her little head sticking out of it. And you'd walk by and there's just like a head sitting like a chin, like a dog on the edge, just like watching, super cute. But she would like drag a hunk of meat and drop it in the water like every day in the morning time. And then she'd wait until it's the heat of the day when this disgusting meat hunk had been floating in the water all day and already had like maggots on it, and then she'd get in. Oh, and she'd get in that water, and it would be, she was so into it. It was disgusting. 
And so I was over there and one of the parts of my job was to take pictures of them, like take pictures of all the animals and whatnot. And so I made rounds several times a day just talking to everybody and I knew all their names and I was kind of talking to her. And she never did this, but in one such lightning fast motion, she stood up and just shook all of her water off. (Kim gasps and laughs) And I got completely covered in it, like completely covered in nasty death hyena water. And I had no clothes. There was just, it was a moment of like, there was nothing to do about it. There was nothing to be done about it. And I knew it in that moment, and I couldn't even be mad about it because it was just the most absurd moment in time. And I just remember looking at her and just being like, God damn it. And that was all I could think, but I love it now. The memory makes me happy. (both laugh) I mean, it was cool. Like they, you know, they had different personalities and, you know, I had my favorites and whatnot. And I just learned a lot. Like lions are very different from tigers in their personality and in my experience, they're way more chill, so much more chill than tigers. 

Kim: It seems like it. 

Macy: Oh my God. I loved the lions. They were so great. The tigers were just kind of, they were shifty. 

KIm: Yeah, they seem pretty wound. 

Macy: They are, and they're cool. 

Kim: Ready. 

Macy: And they'll come up and they'll chuff at you, and rub the little fence, and look like a cat. I can see if you've not been around one, you could want to pet one, but I don't. 

Kim: It looks like a cat. 

Macy: The people who work with tigers and aren't afraid of them blow my mind. Because having worked with tigers, I am terrified of tigers. The day that you hear a tiger slap another tiger's face and it rattles your teeth even though you're 100 yards away. Like, it's like, no, man. Like, we could not even begin to compete with them. Let's just leave them alone. Let's just leave them alone. It's incredible. 

Kim: And people want to bring that into their house. It's baffling.

Macy: I don't know. I don't know. Like, it just is absolutely, and it is, like that's where a lot of them come from is that, they're ex-house pets, or like people get, and then they turn into only a three-month-old cat that's then already pretty much old enough to kill you if it wants to. You know, like, it's just, and you can get one for cheap. You can get a tiger cub for nothing. 

Kim: Like two grand. 

Macy: Yeah, and so people get one, and it's just like, y'all don't even understand. Like this thing is a killing machine.

Kim: Yeah.

Macy:  It does, and I just, yeah, it's crazy. But they're cool animals, but they will beat you to death if they want to. 

Kim: What was your favorite thing that wasn't a cat? Was it the hyena? 

Macy: Well, there was a wolf. There was a timber wolf. Wolves are just my favorite. I love wolves. I always have. And he was so huge. He was massive. He was so big and super gentle. Just the most gentle thing. And I had one of my, I don't know if it was a... a very spiritual experience, but like spiritual in the way of almost like heightened fear. 

Kim: Yeah. 

Macy: But there was a day that he got out. And he was he was friendly, you know, I mean, friendly to people. I mean, unless you, you know, I mean, he was also like probably every bit of a hundred...

Kim: Unless you act like prey. 

Macy: Yeah. And he was probably one hundred and thirty, forty pounds of leggy timber wolf. He was huge. And he got out one day and I we just had to go try to get him back. And I, we were in, I remem- there was a moment and it is etched in my memory so clearly. I was standing out in the woods because I have this thing and it's probably, this very-not-good-for-me, instinct that when animals are in trouble, I'll just like run into danger. And then I always realized where I've put myself in the thick of it. And I'm like, this was a bad idea. And the same thing happened to where I didn't even, I wasn't even obligated to, it wasn't my job. I was a marketer. I ran out into the woods to try to find it. And so like, fast forward to, I'm standing alone in the woods. And I- 

Kim: As a small person. (laughs)

Macy: As a small person that this wolf outweighed. And I just had this moment of like, "Oh. I've done better here." But at the same time though, I was really, really connected to this animal and I like... sent out a call. And I've done this a couple of times and I can't like do it all the time, but I did it when Jorah was missing and I knew he wasn't there. I like pushed out this big call, this energy, and I knew he was around. Like I was just, I knew that I needed to be there. And lo and behold, not long later, he comes out and I was able to, he stayed like 50 yards away and I was so fucking scared the whole time. But he like, I was able to walk and he followed me about 50 yards away, but stayed even until I got all the way back to his enclosure and was able to like get him back in. So it's like, I knew I was supposed to go out there, but that whole time, I just, my rational brain was screaming, like, leave this to the keepers, leave this to the keepers, just go inside, you have an office, you have a lock on the door, like, please go. And I just, I didn't. And so that was just a really, like, spiritual experience that happened right at around, like, the first Witchy Bazaar. Like, that was kind of when everything was happening for, you know, the awakening, if you will. Kim: Yeah, I was going to say that!

Macy: Yeah, yeah. And it was very intense. 

Kim: I remember going to the wolf rescue in Divide in Colorado. And it was like for Ken's birthday and going up there, you're thinking, "Oh, we're going to go in with some wolves!" because we bought the bonus package. 

Macy: Okay. 

Kim: And, oh, you see the pictures. They're like big dogs. And then you get there, they're freaking enormous. 

Macy: It's it's humbling. 

Kim: It's, and it I was like... You could die here.

Macy: Absolutely. 

Kim: But I wouldn't let myself think about it because I'm not trying to give out the death vibes when I'm with, the wolf's shoving his tongue down my throat. 

Macy: Yeah.

Kim: Because apparently that's how they say Hey. I couldn't breathe but I didn't want to offend him by pushing it off. 

Macy: Exactly. Yeah, no, they are incredible to look at, and they don't look out of their eyes the same way that dogs do. Like they do, but they don't. There's just something so much older looking out of that face to me. And like he would look at, and he wasn't an old wolf, I think he was only like six years old, but looking at him, it was like looking through the sands of time. It's hard to explain. He had these big blue eyes, you know, and it was just intense. It was, they're amazing creatures. The wolves, I think, were the, maybe... I don't want to say the most unsettling, but they were just the most moving to me. 

Kim: I just love Canids as a whole. 

Macy: I do too, and that's, you know, that's my thing. Like, I'm all, I'm a dog person to the core. 

Kim: Yeah. 

Macy: You know, and so getting to be around the origin au Dog and it's huge. I'm down for it. I'm here for it. 

Kim: It's awesome. Okay, I have to breathe now. So back to witchcraft, so we're sort of winding back around. What are some of the biggest challenges you've gotten from locals or family, not counting Charlye and Hunter?

Macy: Sure. I...

Kim: If you've had any. 

Macy: Well, here's the thing. I probably could have more. I purposely am a bit isolated. I'm a bit of a natural hermit. So I don't stray out in the public more than I have to. I, you know, even like my previous job, I worked from home, like, for most, a lot of that time. And so, I mean, it could be worse. Like, the locals around here, it's a mixed bag. You have some that don't really care, and you have some that will be scared, you know. But I just don't engage in many of them, in interactions. So it's tough to say, like, it is weird. You know, like there are people that I, you know, perhaps like like, you know, if I run into one that I went to high school with and tell them what I'm doing now, most of them would be like, sweet, dude, that sounds good. Because I was running with that crowd from an early age, you know. But I don't know. It's, I just kind of stay out of their way and they stay out of my way. And just having grown up in an environment that I did not prescribe to, I've just learned to do that for a very long time. And I'm just kind of doing that. But family-wise, we're very fortunate. I mean, at least, you know, like my, like, mother's side, highly, highly fortunate. I mean, they're all super into it. They listen to the podcast, like...

Kim: That's so cool. 

Macy: They're so into what we do. And it's, we're, we're beyond lucky. And we're an artsy family, you know. They're very musical or creative in some way. And this kind of weird shit is not too terribly strange. But it is nice to know that they're out there and they're supporting us. And were many of our original, original listeners. Just a hair before you. 

Kim: So, have you gone out to like, I don't know, do you do social events where... I guess not, because COVID hit. I just wanted to see... like the side eye thing. Like when I go to PT and I talk about things and I'll mention it's a podcast and I get this sort of, "Oh, that's, it's about that?"

Macy: Yeah, that's normal. Like that's, yeah, that's run of the mill. Or a polite, "hmm."

Kim: Yeah. 

Macy: You know, something like that, which whatever, you know, like, like that actually happened to me. That's a very, you know what, yes, that's exactly right. I went to get my hair cut the other day, and it's the first haircut that I've ever gotten that my mom did not cut pretty much, like since I was five. And so I went and got a haircut from a stranger. And she was like, you know, doing like the, what do you do? And I do have a moment of "Uh..." (laughs) and I started with that exact laugh. Like when somebody asks me what I do, it's this moment of like, oh, shit, this question. Okay. Because not only do I have, you know, not I have to say, I GET to say, but I'm a full-time podcaster. And I'm sure they're already like, yeah, right. Okay, this guy. 

Kim: "Is that like YouTube?"

Macy:  But then it's, oh, what's it about? Witchcraft and spiritualism. And it almost is always a, "Oh."

Kim:  Especially where you live. 

Macy: Exactly. And that's not like, wonderfully, a lot of Hunters' family are like, "Interesting." You know, like they might not believe in it and whatnot, but they find it interesting. You know, they're like, that's just, that makes, you know, they know me and they, they're very accepting. And so I don't think they're just surprised by it. They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Kim: "That's just Macy."

Macy:  Yeah. They're super cool about it, but we're just, we're just really, really lucky in that regard, especially in it's, it's really, it's a mixture of like saddening and just maddening. You know, reading some of the experiences that people like open up about in the coven of not being accepted. And I just, that just is a, it's a shame. It's just a real shame. 

Kim: Does it ever give you imposter syndrome? Do you ever have that? 

Macy: I don't get it about my spiritual ability. Like, I get it about a lot of other things. Like, I got big, I get imposter syndrome all the time regarding, like, just me being worthy of having the podcast audience, you know, stuff like that. Like being like, what if, like, those kinds of just intrusive thoughts of just being like, yeah, but like, you're just you, you know, and like, you're not like super, you know, I don't know, I just like, it's hard to explain, but, and like when I went full time, like the feelings of being like, should you be allowed to do this? Like, why do you get to do this? And why do like, you know> Like, why do you get this opportunity? And it's like, I get it about that, you know, to where I doubt, I'll like have moments of doubt of being like, are you just really flying by the seat of your pants here? Like, you know, like, I'll have that. But when it comes to witchcraft, for some reason, I'll have moments to where I just don't practice it as much. When I am practicing, I just have this, I just know it's going to work. Which is maybe a little weird, but I just, that I never, I never doubt. 

Kim: So you don't have that feeling of "This isn't real"?

Macy:  No. I really don't. And I think part of it is because I don't force it when I'm not feeling it. So when I usually do witchcraft, I am feeling it, and I'm talking to things that I can't even put a name on, you know. And I've just done it. I pay close attention to what I do and follow what happens afterwards. And after doing that, and the just massive changes that I've wrought upon my life and the lives of others directly following work that I've done, I just, I don't doubt it. I really, really don't. 

Kim: That's... baffling to me.

Macy: Well, I, part of me wonders if it makes me delusional, but like I- 

Kim: Who cares, if it works!

Macy: Yeah, I just, I don't know. I think it's because it's the first place that I truly felt at home at, like in my own skin, doing the work that I do here. Especially once I kind of like nestled into this land and it took me in and I took it in and we kind of had this like soul merge. I get a lot of power from this place. And I think that's part of it, is just the things that I've experienced here. I do believe because they, I mean they they're so intense. You feel like your skin is going to come off, you know, and it's just I don't believe my own brain has the ability to just conjure that up as a placebo. I don't.

Kim:  I finally started to get some of that. 

Macy: Good. 

Kim: Like when I came home from work the other day, I opened the gate and stepped over the gate, the threshold, and I was like, "Oh. I'm home."

Macy:  Yeah, yeah, good. I've wondered about that before, because you are now in Arizona from Colorado, that's just such a different terrain and a different- 

Kim: And I'm from Virginia. 

Macy: Man, yeah, so you had to get to know a lot of different environments and at least for me, different... They're different, you know, they're handled differently and the spirits here and there are different. So I just, you're having to kind of learn, let them know you and you know them. And I just, I do feel like that's got to be an interesting progress or process that takes some time. 

Kim: It's, it's really weird because I Always say that Virginia is older and has the older mountains. Because I am a mountain person, I can't be without mountains. 

Macy: Oh, yeah. And then I went to Germany which is even older, but I didn't really have a connection.

Macy: Yeah.

Kim:  And then we came out to Colorado and I was like, whoa, everything's way younger and wild here...

Macy: Yeah.

Kim: And now here in Arizona. This is the most wild of anywhere. 

Macy: Interesting. See, I guess I wouldn't think that just because of it not having like my you know, like a bunch of forest you know, in the sense of wild. But it is a tough place to live, I feel like, if you're a creature out there. Which is gonna put a very interesting energy around the place.

Kim: It's like if you compare, like let's say a beagle is Virginia. 

Macy: Okay. 

Kim: It'll go out and run around. 

Macy: Sure. 

Kim: Out here, it's like a freaking, I was going to say wolf, but that's too cliche. It's like a hawk out here. 

Macy:Yeah. 

Kim: It's very fierce. 

Macy: Yeah. Yeah. I believe that. 

Kim: And you can't touch it. 

Macy: Yeah. That's true.

Kim: You gotta be careful. 

Macy: Yeah. There's a lot of pokey things. There's a lot of stinging things. There's a lot of poisonous things. Like, yeah.

Kim:  The air wants to kill you.

Macy:  Yeah, it's a real, like, can't stand the heat. 

Kim: Actually, the dirt wants to kill you. Valley fever, it'll kill you. 

Macy: Oh my God. What is Valley fever? 

Kim: I mean, it can kill you. It is a fungal infection that is in the ground.

Macy: Wonderful. 

Kim: The dirt. So if a big wind storm comes...

Macy: Oh yeah. 

Kim: It can kick up a bunch of crap. 

Macy: Whoa, yeah. See, I know nothing about desert. I like it. I think it's cool. I've been to it a handful of times. Saw my first tarantula wild at a desert and I didn't just love it, but I remember it. But I don't have, I've never lived in a, I've never lived anywhere that's not wooded other than like the city for one year of my life. 

Kim: I mean, me neither until now, and I do really miss it. I miss trees like crazy. 

Macy: Yeah, yeah. Shade in general, I feel. 

Kim: (laughs) Yeah. But I mean, I would always go and touch them and talk to them. 

Macy: Yeah, that's the thing. They're a beacon of energy that I can understand. Like, we have a wavelength that's similar enough to where trees, I can just talk to. Like, ghosts? Not always, and very rarely, you know, and usually one just has to shove its way through my brain, I guess. But like trees, I, and I've always been that way looking back as a kid, you know, so yeah, I would miss them, I think, if I had to leave them. Well I did.

Kim:  Well, I miss him a bunch. So how long do you want to do the podcast? 

Macy: I think as long as we can, you know, I mean, there's a lot of really good podcasts out there that have been at it for a long time, over a decade, you know? And I like how... and I think we could, but you know, with how we've just made WBAH a continuously evolving, growing thing, it allows it to be open-ended. And, you know, to our, you know, likely the format is going to remain the same, but Charlye and me are allowed to change and grow and learn along the way. And I like to think that that will keep it fresh and make it so that it can stay current. As long as we're always trying to learn and be open, we should be able to keep at it. There's other things. We're always spitballing different ideas to come off of WBAH. WBAH, essentially, is kind of the source and it can lead to other things. As to whether it's a forever thing, I don't know. It's fun for us and it already does not feel like three years. You know...

Kim: I know!

Macy: Like it's crazy to me and I don't really understand it. But it feels like at most two years. And I think part of that is at fault of 2020 because I don't remember that year at all. It's just like a blank thing. But it's crazy. And so we've been at it for three years and it barely feels like it. So it feels like there's a lot of life left. And now being full time, that's just opened up a whole new level of possibility that we can do and liven it up even more and start traveling and stuff like that. So it's – I don't know. I feel like it's really just at this point, even after three years, we're just hitting a new chapter.

Kim: I do hope you guys get out here for the Gem Show one year. 

Macy: I want to. I'm dead ass serious about it. And I mean, I was like considering it, you know, COVID fucked it up, you know, but like 2020 or like this year, you know, but I knew it was still not going to happen in January. It's January, right? Usually when it happens?

Kim:  Yeah. At the very end of January into like Valentine's Day. 

Macy: Yeah. No, I think it sounds really, really, really cool just to be around all the rocks, you know? 

Kim: Yeah. (laughs)

Macy:  I feel like the energy there just has to be interesting.

Kim: It's funny sometimes. 

Macy: Like, how big are we talking here? Like how, because it's multiple days, right? 

Kim: The whole city. The shows I go to normally are Kino, which is a big, huge, like couple acre outdoor one. JOGS, which is a big event building, full. And 22nd Street and Pueblo. And those are sort of near each other, but they're great big warehouses. And Pueblo is like a collection of hotels. And there are way more than that. Those are just the ones I usually go to. This year we also went to the Miners show, which is out in like a sports park and they took over. And it was really small this year, but it was still like in a giant parking lot. And that's where all the slab is and the rough and the actual people who go out there and get it. 

Macy: Cool. Cool. Yeah. More raw material?

Kim: And that's just a little bit. I don't go to all the shows. I just go to a couple of them.

 Macy: That's cool. Yeah, I would love to do that, just to see what that's like, you know? And just out of my own curiosity, too, because I know there's a lot of careers that are attending that, you know? And I bet the mixing of people is interesting, all around a whole bunch of just vibin'-ass crystals and I just I want to I want to go take part in that and see it. 

Kim: And actually this I don't even go to the raw crystal stuff, most of what I go to is cut already so that's a whole nother huge area that I haven't even been to. 

Macy: Yeah yeah oh but the cut stuff is so pretty.

Kim: There are some amazing gem cutters. I will have to link you because they are amazing. 

Macy: That's like when we, I'm so low brow when it comes to gemstones, like I could not know any less. And like so we, before Hunter and me got engaged, we did go look. Like I'm neurotic enough to was like, look, I at least want to look at some give you an idea of what we're talking about here because just because. And so we went and looked at some rings and I actually found the one that I now have. I just liked that one. And I was like, look, that one, I like that one. That's the one. And, but there, I was looking at these, they were just like solitaire rings, like diamond solitaires. And they were so expensive. They were like $20,000. I was like, why, why are these rings $20,000? It's just a round diamond. I don't get it. And like, I was asking the woman and she was kind of like "...yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a solitaire, but it's, do you want to look at it?" And I was like, what do you mean? I'm looking at it. She's like, "No, let's like, let's like look at it." And so she took it out and she like put it in like a, you know, the thing with like the microscope, but not a microscope? And then I got it, you know, I was like, oh my gosh, this thing is covered in like 30 million cuts. That's crazy. You know. But at the same time I was like...

Kim: It's still a boring diamond. 

Macy: It's a diamond, you know, It's a single diamond!

Kim: Who cares?

Macy: That was my thing. I was like, what? Like, mine costs beyond a fraction of that, but at least it looks cool, you know?

Kim: Visually interesting. 

Macy: Yeah. I just think somebody put some... 

Kim: It's not a round diamond, who cares? Boring. 

Charlye: Yeah, there's design, but I do get it. You know, like, I guess if you're in it for the artistry of the gemstone, that makes sense. But I was more caring about almost the setting, you know? 

Kim: When I was saying gem cutters, I mean, they actually carve things into them. Like, picture that diamond, but there's like visual interest.

Macy: That's badass. That's amazing. 

Kim: It so is. 

Macy: Oh, I feel like you just have to be so precise. 

Kim: I can't imagine.

Macy:  I don't have that level of nerve. I don't want another thing of stress in my life.

Kim: Yeah, that's why Ken's the one cutting the rune stones, not me. 

Macy: Yeah, I'm tense enough. I don't need to clench any harder all the time. (both laugh)

Kim: Oh no. What do you most desire for your practice?

Macy: To keep, I mean, this is kind of like a (makes obnoxious noise) answer, but to keep learning is a big one. Like Charlye and me started at square one, as base level as you can get. All we had was pretty much zero knowledge, but a feeling of connection. And we just went from there. So to keep growing it and learning is a big part of it. And also keep finding my, my specific breed of practice, which I've really kind of been nestling into the past year. And it's not really anything in, you know, I would say it does kind of lean in like the Appalachia Conjure style. But kind of also just with what feels right, and listening to the things here, and working on the communication with them. And just to keep growing, is a big part of it. And to just keep focusing on connection, because it does take – it takes work, you know. Like I don't wake up every day just like blowing magic out of my palms. Like it's – like anything else, it takes maintenance and mindfulness and work and attention. Otherwise, you lose it. So to just to maintain the discipline is a big part of that too. And to be a bit more careful, like I do, I have only one instance and it's a far cry from where I began to where I, you know, I think in the, we talked about ethics, like an episode, I don't know, fucking four?  I was a bit more leaning towards not going gray, ever. You know, I want to say, I don't remember for sure, but I want to say that I was like more, no, no, just purely defense magic, not going to go gray. 

Kim: Oh. Huh!

Macy:  I don't know if I've remembered. I just feel like me at the beginning felt that way. I don't anymore. However, I do have one instance of going a little gray and I went a little too ham. And I want to make sure that, that's one thing, is I learned that day, like, I do need to be conscious to not lose my temper in spell work. And I've done that one time, and the aftermath of it. I mean, I'm not going to say I'm not, like, at least a little bit satisfied with, because, you know, I'm petty. And I think it's a, but at the same time, I was like, oh, I don't need to lose my cool. So that's another thing, just things like that, like always observing what I'm doing, maintaining discipline and trying to learn from my mistakes. Because while I'm not, again, totally sad about what happened, I do consider it a mistake. Because I should not have, have, have done that. It was a cool time though, it was a good story. It was a good, it was a good, I felt great doing it. 

Kim: I have some unconscious things that I've done, I think, like that. Back when I was a kid. 

Macy: Oh yeah. Yeah, well, here's the thing, because as a kid, I feel like you just have wild, unbridled control over your energy anyway. And you can just slingshot things out if you don't mean it. 

Kim: Yeah. Some kid was... not actively trying to drown me, but he didn't care if I died. 

Macy: Yeah. 

Kim: He's dead now.

Macy: Yeah. I mean, that's serious. You know, like, that's a moment of, like, fight or flight, not only just in the moment, but also just in energy. You are not a fan of that person at that time. 

Kim:  Remember how you said that how you want, why you don't want to use a wand?

Macy:  Yeah.

Kim:  You want the shower instead of the jet?

Macy:  Yeah. 

Kim: It was jet. 

Macy: Yeah, exactly. You know, I would believe that 100%. Yeah, no, I do think it's, I live my life by it. I don't like to test things because to my core, I do believe it. And in that is, and it was me losing my cool and seeing the aftermath of what happened to this person. That is honestly one of the things that has solidified that belief for me. 

Kim: A universal ope. (laughs)

Macy:  Yeah, it was, and it's still going on with this person, like they're still, you know, and it's just like, yeah, yeah, I'm not surprised, you know, which I might go, I might tell, I'm going to save it because I know you have a question of like, what is one of my favorite? 

Kim: That is it. What is your most memorable spell experience?

Macy:  Because here's the thing, this day started differently. It did not start in a way that was to end the way that it did. But I was full on an energy beacon of magic and I just went with it. But to start, so I'm very, very, I don't have many, like, friends and people that I'm... I'm a lizard. We've talked about it. I don't let people in very well. But the ones that I do, I am deeply, fiercely, overly maternally protective of, and I don't like when people wrong them. I take it personally. Like it's a very, I get so motherly about it and I'm not like a motherly person with kids, but to my people I am. 

Kim: Loyal AF. 

Macy: Yeah and it's the, you know, if you just...

Kim: On the enneagram, are you a six?

Macy:  I need to take that I saw you post that. I've never heard of it before but I want to tell you, I saw Lyra posted her numbers and shit and I do want to. I want to take that and find out, and because I am, I'm like super loyal and protective. And so someone that I deeply deeply cared about had been wronged by just a fucking schmuck, man. You know, just a, just a fuckin... you know?

Kim: Douchebag.

Macy: And I was already mad about that, and I was already oh, just fuckin' over it. Anyway I woke up and I was like, I need to cleanse this house. That was really where it started. But the problem was that I started this with a chip on my shoulder.  Okay? But I did, and it was honestly the most incredible cleansing I've ever experienced because it lasted for hours. And I got up, and it was just kind of like, sometimes I do wake up, though, with this solemn call of, let's get to work and we're doing magic this morning. It's usually in the morning.

Kim: I love those days.

Macy: Yeah, and it's like a "Oh, okay." And so I got up and I just started readying everything and I didn't look anything up. I was just grabbing shit and I was like, I'm going to start doing a protection. I did earth, I did elemental offerings on North, like East, South, West, like all the corners of the whole property and like had offerings specific to each element in each one and like called elements, elementals in when I was like preparing them. It was serious fucking business. And it was intense before it even started. Like, even, like, you know, I don't know if you do deity work. Like, I don't do deity work, but like elemental work, I guess, kind of, you know, the same, the same big time, big powerful energy, you know. When you feel it blanket a room and you're like, oh, okay, you showed up. Like, it was that, you know, and I set up the corners and like, as I set them up, I was walking and smoking with juniper and sprinkling cascarilla. I walked it several times and then worked inward. And for the very first time, though, not the very first time, but intentionally called on a deity that I do connect with. I had the candle and everything and I set it up and I was like, for the inside of the house, I called and like sat and just kind of, if she wanted to come, I set out an offering for the Baba Yaga. 

Kim: Oh!

Macy:  And she's somebody, I very much connect with her and, you know, being in my own kind of hermit-y, swampy cottage in the woods. And I just, I relate to her sense of how she handles shit, you know, she's right down the middle and she'll help you if you want to help yourself, but if you don't...

Kim: Mm-hmm.

Macy: ...whatever, you know, and I don't know just in that time. I just knew like that was what needed to happen. And so I set her up a space on, I do a lot of my work in the dining room table. And she had offerings that she could come and I pretty much just, you know, kind of said like there's there's a space for you here to break bread with me, essentially. And I'm going to be doing this. If you feel the need to yield any assistance, you may do so. It's kind of like that. I'm not being like, "Hey, come here. I need you to help me, Baba Yaga." I'm not even going to go that way. 

Kim: "Help me carry this."

Macy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a real like, you can come, have a snack. And if that's all you want to do, that's fine. But she, that was not all that she wanted to do, because she showed up. And it was like, I remember being like, almost like you got to like grip a wall, you know? And so I put the, I had, honestly, it was the Baba Yaga candle from Prairie Fire Herbal, which those candles are so fucking intense. Everything, every candle that, every spell, anything I've done, ritual that I've done using one of those candles is just... to 11. And I used the Baba Yaga and I put it in the very center, the heart of the house, and I started cleansing all the way out, like in an outward spiral, all the way out. And then this is when... and part of me wonders, and if like the Baba Yaga, her energy showed up and is what made me, she was like my hype man, like she's what made things go this way, because she thinks that this is what needed to happen. Like she read my innermost desire and was like, you know what? This dude is an absolute just worm of a person. Let's do something about it. Like I don't like to put the words in her mouth, but it felt like that. It was like I was cleansing the house, but at the same time, this just scrappy energy, like after she showed up was like, "You know you want to teach that fucker a lesson." It was just so weird. And I went with it. Oh, I went with it and I went with it hard. And I wound up like, you know what? Yes. And so while I'm essentially outwardly binding this person with words I don't remember, but I just remember speaking and not stopping in unbroken speech for like an hour of just... just a bind. And a lot of it was just repeating the same thing over and over again. And like I wound up getting like the piece of paper. I wrote the name, I wrapped it so tight a million times in twine, and then sealed that in wax, the whole time just being like, saying... and not like I wish you harm, or nothing like that, but like a...

Kim: Well that's not what binding is.

Macy: Yeah it was just like a, you... I've had enough of you, it was what it was it was. A big long thing of "Enough." I am, I've had enough. And so then, and I was just going by pure instinct at this point. So I bound this thing up and then I just I grabbed, I grabbed the little bundled up wax name and I just set out of my house and I started walking. So the way that my house is laid out is that it's set down in a valley, and there's a very steep upward driveway. And so it's like you're in a bowl and it sometimes feels like even at the top of the driveway standing on the road, the sky curves over you like a wave. You're kind of down in a hole, but across the road is just this scorching pasture land with cows in it. And so I just calmly, I get this name, and the whole time I'm still saying my shit, you know. And every now and again, I feel like the Baba Yaga wanted to chime in because I wouldn't say things like through her, but I would just say things and I feel like her name would come up. It was weird, dude, it was so weird, but I was just channeling this bind. And it was probably the most intense I've ever felt. And I just walked up the driveway, barefooted, just doing my thing, get to the road, and I just flicked that fucking thing into the pasture. (Kim laughs) And I don't know where it went. I didn't even look. I was already turning around when I just flicked it. Just like an absolute "And fuck off." And just walked down the driveway, feeling great, feeling good, and got back in the house. And I left the candle and her altar going all day long. And I feel like she stayed around a long time. And I didn't ever really truly ask anything of her, but I do sometimes feel that the Baba Yaga showed up to my house and helped me fuck shit up one day... and encouraged it. And I've cherished that memory. 

Kim: She's a rabblerouser. (laughs)

Macy:  I was like, dude, this dude's life has just blown up. And not without his own doing. And, you know, and he's a really, you know, she's a real help yourself  if you want to help yourself, but if you're going to keep digging a hole, I'm going to let you keep digging that hole, and might help you keep digging it. That's like what's happening, dude. And so it's like, I don't know. It's just an interesting thing. And I don't want to say that I fully regret it because I don't, but at the same time, again, I consider it an oversight. 

Kim: That's a good-ass story. 

Macy: So that was one of my most favorite days of witchcraft, because even the cleansing part, the cleansing part was the most incredible cleansing I've ever had. It was just, I think that was the day I've felt the most powerful in my entire life and I did shit with it. 

Kim: That sounds awesome.

Macy: So yeah, I was excited to tell that. That was like, I read that question and I was like, all right, fine, I'll do it. I'll share that one. 

Kim: I'm glad I asked! So what is your, after that bomb ass story, what's your biggest struggle with witchcraft? 

Macy: It was... it's an improving thing now, but I am naturally a very, well I'm very pragmatic by like nature and sense and spirit. I am so woo. Like, I mean, even as like a four-year-old, there's like Polaroids of me running around in these woods in a fucking fairy costume as a hobby, you know? Like, that's just what I was into. And that's my nature. And the problem is, though, is that when that nature has to compete with really intense physical world demands, it can wilt. And like, you know, I'm full time now, but like my previous job, while I enjoyed it, it took every scrap of my rational mind to do it. It was a hard job, it was a demanding job, and it was a job that I had a lot of say in, and like consequence in that same vein, you know? And so the longer I was there, the harder and harder and harder it was to reconnect to the metaphysical. And that's my biggest difficulty with witchcraft, is that when I am having to have feet in both worlds, because I think I'm also naturally pretty pragmatic, I will start to slip away, kind of into that side. And so while I can feel very, very connected, and I believe in the connection, I have to work pretty regularly at it to keep it open. Otherwise, I'll start slipping into what needs to be done. Like the very normal, practical business side of life, because I also have that kind of brain. 

Kim: I relate to that. 

Macy: It's a weird mix, you know? It's kinda, it's a weird balance. 

Kim: Right now I'm just like trying not to die of heatstroke. So. 

Macy: Yeah.

Kim:  I don't have very much magic to do. (laughs)

Macy: Fair enough, you know.  Honestly, like which I, though I do wonder like at like, in the evening time I bet like the earth has to probably feel pretty buzzy after soaking up so much solar energy in a day. 

Kim: I... because I have this idiotic schedule where I have to get up at 3:30 in the morning, I can't go out. By the time it's cool, which is probably around 10 or 11, I've been asleep for three hours.

Macy: Yeah yeah, you gotta go to bed. Oh wow yeah, so you're pretty much just like only awake for that part, for the scorching heat.

Kim:  yeah I get off at 10 and that's when it's like 103. It's the best.

Macy: Sweet! Damn. Yeah. 

Kim: But when it's not this three months of hell, everything's great here. 

Macy: Yeah. 

Kim: It's just this three months where everything sucks. 

Macy: Yeah, I, well, unfortunately, like as the climate is worsening, like summer, like summer is something I love very much and summer here- 

Kim: Me too. 

Macy: ...is great, but now summer because of other places in like, I get worried now. There's a sense of when June shows up that I'm like, here we go. Like, what's going to happen this year? Like, how many acres are going to burn this year? And you know, like, it's kind of turned into a real, almost like a solemn at the same time of like, all right, let's see where this one takes us. It's kind of scary. 

Kim: Yeah. On that super positive note, what makes you angry about the witch community? 

Macy: I mean, angry is a strong word. There's a few things that I don't understand. 

Kim: What makes you like unhappy? 

Macy: And it's not about the witchcraft community in particular. Again, I'm a Luddite and I'm also a recluse by nature, and maybe an alien/lizard. So relating to people is not always something that I'm just super, I can relate to people's emotions because I can feel them, but people's actions confuse me. And just like some of the, like why? And you might be able to help me with this, but like, why do people get on witchtok if it just pisses them off? Why? Why do you do it? But I hear that all the time. 

Kim: I don't, that's why I deleted TikTok. Because I was getting mad. So I was like, well, but I'm also almost 50. TikTok is aimed at people who are younger, who don't know that they can just not comment. 

Macy: Well, and I guess that's the thing-

Kim: Plus, I grew up without the internet. I was without the internet at this point, maybe not in a couple of years, but at this point I didn't have internet longer than I did. 

Macy: Was that kind of great? 

Kim: No.

Macy: Really? I have, I mean, very, very small, small memories of not having like internet. Like we had pretty stable internet when I was about 10, but like we still had dial-up before then, you know, but sometimes...

Kim:  I was like 26 when we got AOL. 

Macy: Ah. 

Kim: And I remember the sound of it dialing up. 

Macy: Oh, yeah. 

Kim: Like my niece, she'll continue the conversation when she could just say, "Okay." and walk away. 

Macy: That's what gets me the most is, and again, and this is not like completely like just witchcraft community specific but every community because I think internet culture has just made people love to fight each other. And that bothers me a lot, because I do see it a lot in the witchcraft community to where it just, it escalates immediately. You know, like it's like there's not even, it's just people just come out swinging, you know, and that really, it irritates the hell out of me. It really, really does, you know, and like, luckily, most of the time, for instance, like in the coven, there's some really interesting educational conversations that can go on over there that don't devolve into chaos. It doesn't always happen, but a lot of the times, that's how it goes, you know? 
But every now and again, it's just like, I don't... and it's like, something's in the water because it's like, everyone wants to fight some days, you know? And I don't know if it's like, astrologically connected sometimes, but like, every now and again, and it's like, not even just in like, the coven or whatever, but if it's like, I'm on Reddit or anywhere, there will just be periods of time where no matter where I look, people are fighting. And I'm really sensitive to that. Like I don't like it when people argue. I feel like of all that like empath emotions, anger is probably the worst for me, even if it's not my own, if I'm just around people who are irritated, it's completely just... and I can like feel that through words, you know, and so if it's just like everywhere I'm looking, people are just fighting each other for no real actual reason other than because they're behind their keyboards and can. Like, just be fucking nice. And I just, I see that in the witchcraft community all the time. Just snarky, petty bullshit when it's like, what... (sighs) We are so limited on the amount of seconds that we get in this life. You don't get many, you know? And you don't know when they're going to run out. Is this really, truly how you want to spend them? I don't get it. 

Kim: Well, on TikTok at least, I think it's because they haven't been without the Internet. That's all they know. And they're young and don't realize, hey, I don't have to respond. 

Macy: And you know, I guess that's true. 

Kim: At least for TikTok, I think that's why. They don't know about everything else. 

Macy: To be fair, when I was a teenager, like a 16 through 19-year-old, I had a pretty big streak of that. Like the, "I'm right and I'm going to tell you why I'm right and I'm not going to stop until you think I'm right." You do kind of, hopefully, not everybody, but you can grow out of that a little bit, but I will I will say that yeah, I had a streak of that too, when I was a teenager, like big time. 

Kim: It took me like 40 years. And I still do it sometimes, cuz I'm... I can get riled. I have my triggers.

Macy: Yeah, well, yeah, you know. Like I don't know. I it's just... online communication is just... The internet's a place that I've never felt super at home at anyway. And it's like one of those things, it's like as soon as people start fighting, even if it's something honestly that I like care about, I'm disengaging. I'm out. Something about it just really shoots my anxiety through the roof. Because I don't like people fighting in person, and for some reason, people fighting online feels the same to me. Because it is. And I know that there are two people that don't, and it's worse, to be honest, because these are two people that don't even know each other who are fighting, just for the fuck of it. And- 

Kim: And there's nothing holding them back from being as nasty as they can be. 

Macy: Exactly, and so it's just- 

Kim: There's not that social agreement where you don't say those things in person.

 Macy: Right. And I just, I don't know, I'm super sensitive to it. And it just, I almost shut down. Like I'll just like put the phone away and just disengage for a while because I just, I get reminded how people act every now and again on the internet. But I would say that's the biggest thing. I just wish people would be nice. And more often than not in person, they are, you know? Like, and just remember that we're all striving for the same thing here, you know? Like, at the end of the day, and that I think is really important, you know? And remembering that. And we got to stick together as it is, you know? There's not that many of us, and comparatively, or if they are, you know, a lot of them are alone and don't realize that there's a community. So if this community could just fucking get along, that would be really great for us! Because you know, that's how things should work! In unity! But I I don't know it's... luckily most of the time. and I don't know, I've heard. I don't join other Facebook groups. There's a lot of people say that like Facebook groups are just toxic as fuck.

Kim:  Yeah.

Macy: Ours isn't really that bad. And like people will say like, I left this group because of like, apparently just power trips, like, just people like, especially mods, like, thank good, you're, you're just this, y'all, we have good mods. But like, mods get power trippy and shit. And it's just like, oh, sometimes I just wish the internet, I just wish people wrote letters. Because that's the thing, when you write letters, you get so much time to cool down, and you're probably going to crumple a few up. You're going to go through the work to write that thing, and you're going to go through the trouble of mailing it. And sometimes when you've written a letter, put a stamp on it, an envelope, and wrote the address on it, you might not even send it, because you might be over it. But with instant communication, people can just spew whatever they want at another person that they don't even know. And that's just not something that I think humans...

Kim: Need. 

Macy: ...need. Yeah, that's a good, yes, precisely. 

Kim: My friend Summer says that the internet is not real. Instagram's not real. Facebook isn't real. No matter how famous you are on those things or how great you seem, you still have to go brush your teeth and make food and find a way to provide for your family. No matter what the hell happens on the internet. So, stop getting that into it. 

Macy: Yeah, exactly. You know, and I think that's another thing too, to where like now, you know, like that's like the frontier, you know? Like social media and things like that, like your marketing is done through there. A lot of businesses are run through there. Like it's become so integrated, almost as a need. If you want to run any sort of organization or anything like that, you just gotta, you have to like deal with it. And I think because it's everybody, it's connected to so many people, you can't, you're going to have those that just idolize the ones on top, you know, because it's a sea, it's a massive sea. And there are just some people, you know, like, you know, like the really, really big Instagram accounts. And I think that, in itself, is a fascinating draw for people. Like just the element of success and the meaning of it in a social media platform, like the followers and all that. I think it's like flies to a light, you know, like it's because like there's just so many people in the world. And it's like that's the new definition of making it, you know.

KIm:  It's so weird. 

Macy: It's weird. 

Kim: All the little kids who want to be YouTube stars. 

Macy: Say what? 

Kim: That's what their job dream is. All these little kids now say they want to be YouTube, YouTubers. That's what their dream job is. That's weird.

Macy:  Yeah. And it's like possible. And that's like, I know that's weird. And so but that said, the problem is, is that I do think that it just really if you're not careful, it will dive you into a world that is not real. Like you said, it's just completely fictional. And that's a dangerous place to be. That's a dangerous place to be. If you struggle from any sort of imposter syndrome, as it is, I feel like, you know, it's, you know, especially like, for instance, like in the witchcraft community, if you just like, follow a whole bunch of accounts of people to where every picture they post is just this incredible, like, ritual costume, with like the lines and shit on their nose, and they are in this beautiful landscape and everything they do is top notch.

Kim: Aesthetic to death.

Macy: Say what?

Kim: Aesthetic to death. 

Macy: Yeah, you're gonna probably feel a bit inadequate, you know, because if that's your reality, that's what being a witch is. And I think it's very important to step away and find out for yourself, too. You know? And listen to things for yourself, and just remember, at the end of the day, that you have a mind of your own. And remember that there's places that exist outside of it, and that's not everything. And I think if that became a bit more normal, just people stepping away, that a lot of the anger would ease. It's just, they're so tense. 

Kim: Yes. 

Macy: I don't know. I feel like I sound a lot like a Luddite. 

Kim: I... not in this case. (both laugh) Some things, yeah, but not in this. People need to unplug.

Macy:  Yeah, and I love it, dude. I love it. And it makes us probably like shitty business people, but, like, it kind of leads to, like, Charlye and me sometimes take a long time to get things done, way longer than normal. But, like, sometimes we'll just unplug for a few days and, like, disappear. And I think that's added to the longevity of the show in doing so. We don't run ourselves ragged. And every now and again, if we're just both, like, we just need to, like, and I think we'll sometimes do it to each other, you know, to where it's like, I'm gonna kind of, like, go dark for a few days, you know? And that's just how it works. You can kind of step away and do your thing, and come back refreshed. 

Kim: And then you come back and your phone is full of knife emojis. (both laugh)

Macy: Yeah, yeah. Dude, that is so effective. Like, it is amazing. And it's like to the point now to where one of us almost senses it because it's like immediately after the knives you get an answer and that's both parties. It's just like, you know, it's coming. 

Kim: As a joke, I kind of wanted to send Charlye a Marco, just showing pictures of knives. And just be like, I just wanted to say hey. (both laugh)

Macy: And it's so like... 

Kim: Is this how you emoji? 

Macy: Yeah, it's so ferocious, but man, it's so effective. And it's like, always at the best moments too, like when, like I was having just like a day outside away from my phone the day that like they announced the Most Outstanding Podcast of the Year 2020. And I was just completely oblivious. Then I checked my phone and there's like 14 Marcos and like a million knife emojis and I was like... "Something happened."

Kim:  It just makes me laugh every time I think of the knife emoji. Which comes up surprisingly often. I don't know what that is. I mean in my personal... brain story. 

Macy: It's just so... and it's such an intense knife too. It's like the Mike Myers, like the like the Halloween knife. It's very intense, you know, and it just it says everything you need, without saying it.

Kim: What is something you wish, well we might have kind of covered this actually, what is something you wish was discussed more in the witch community? 

Macy: That's a tough question. Because there's a lot of things discussed in the witch community. I just wish they were discussed... nicer. 

Kim: Differently?

Macy: Yeah. Or I guess just discussed, in general. In like the civil way. But that's kind of tricky. I do like bringing like bringing forth the discussion of like the non, like not gatekeeping. That's something that I don't like to see, you know, that kind of gatekeepers attitude of, you know... There was a post about it the other day, like "If you're not a genetic lineage witch" it's like, that's complete and utter horse shit. And you know it, like, come on, shit like that. I do, and it's talked about pretty openly, but I do wish that it was like the more known. Like, you know, like, that it was like the more, because I do think it could be very discouraging or intimidating to someone who has an interest in it and if that's the first thing they come across, they're just, they're done. You know? Like, I don't like things like that. Like I don't like anything that, to where if a, you know, and this is, I do have a marketer's mind. Like I, I, I'm a creative marketer and I understand like the, the psychology behind marketing and stuff like that, which is the fun part that I like, and I put myself in the person's shoes, because I was there not that long ago. It was only three years ago that I was that person, you know? And I put myself in that person's shoes. And they find an interest in something, probably online, and read a whole bunch of comments that are just gatekeeper, like gatekeeping, just hateful bullshit. And I know that happens all the time, you know? And it's like, I just, I wish that the, it's intimidating right now. Like currently I do feel like it's a little intimidating to put your toe into the community. And I wish that it wasn't, as much. In that, you know, it was more widely accepted that it's okay to be a solo practitioner and to be brand new. But right now, a lot of the stigma is still like, you need to have a coven, and you gotta do this and that. And it's just like I think it overcomplicates witchcraft in a way, if that makes sense. And sometimes people like to make it seem a little bit more daunting and exclusive than it is, or than it should be. 

Kim: This is interesting because I just did an interview with a new witch and she says she feels super welcome. 

Macy: Well good, like I'm glad to hear that. And like I was,  you know. My experience was excellent too, you know. I just know that, I mean specifically from the bunch of gatekeeper attitudes. It's not everybody and you know, as witchcraft is becoming more mainstream it's becoming less and less. But I have seen conversations of like witches, and this is just purely like putting a timeline on it, like kind of like the earlier witches in like the 90s and like late 80s, you know, like that generation of witches, seeing like the new age generation of witches as just being like full of shit, you know?

Kim: Guilty.  (both laugh)

Macy: And I guess, you know, it's normal with any kind of like generational anything, you know, there's going to be a bit of that. But I just don't want it to encroach into rudeness to where they make it seem like the new witches don't have a place, when they do. 

Kim: I just thought it was interesting because I also expected her, when she started talking about it, I thought she was going to say, "Oh, it seems pretty gatekeepy" and she was the complete opposite. I was shocked. 

Macy: I'm glad. I'm really, really glad.

Kim:  Me too. I was really interested to see that, oh, the world's different than what I thought it was. How does that even work? 

Macy: And it's amazing too, because like even just in the three years since we started WBAH, the community has just not only grown, not just like the WBAH community, but the witchcraft community. 

Kim: Yeah.

Macy:  It exploded. And I like to think that that's a big part of it, you know, is that that's going to become less and less as more people are trying to find their place in the thick of it. And it is, I mean, the growth is just absolutely incredible. 

Kim: I'm loving it. 

Macy: I am too. I really am. I'm happy to see it. Because it's just a good, nice, peaceful state of mind. You know, if nothing else, like, and I think the world needs more of that, you know, for like a way to just kind of like archetype it, like kind of going back to the goddess type energy, you know what I mean? Like just kind of everybody just getting along, and peaceful, and just trying to feel each other and just be a part of each other and the community. I'm just, I'm very happy to see it. And I think that, you know, these are just isolating times in general, like not even just due to COVID. Like just as, you know, it gets harder to make a living and harder to do this and that. And, you know, things like that. It's just sometimes you can just find yourself isolated and feeling like you're the only one out there. And in any community and especially when you can wrap any sort of spiritual connection in there. I just think it's going to help so many people just feel feel better about where they are and who they are. 

Kim: Who would you say are the three most influential people to you and your craft? 

Macy: One of them is my grandma, the one that I bought the house from, this was her house. And she allowed this property down here in this house to become what it is. She breathed life into this house. And, you know, it's hard to explain until you're here, but the world's most impeccable, creative homemaker lived in this house for 20 years and just made it very interesting. You know, she's a writer, she's a poet, she's a painter, she's a sewist, she is a, like, master genealogist, she knows everything about fucking aromatherapy, she's a soap maker. 

Kim: Oh, she's that one. 

Macy: She does, she just did everything, you know, like, and so there was always just this creative, very thoughtful energy. And, you know, she just respected this place. She respected the house and, you know, therefore, this house has a, I don't, it's just a place that you come and feel that this place has been cherished and respected and the trees know it and the woods know it and it's just, there's this sense of welcoming here. And just the way that she's constantly evolving and, you know, I'm a natural homemaker, too. I'm a homebody. I like to work in tandem with my house as an entity. And I feel like she did the same thing. And I really, I learned a lot, just kind of, I didn't learn it directly, but I'm realizing now in my living here, how similar we are and how I can just sense her imprint on this house still. And that's, I respect the hell out of that. Like, that's cool. Let me see. Charlye, of course. Like, I mean, truly, like...

Kim: I was wondering if you guys were gonna do that.

Macy: Well, and it's just like, legitimately, like, we keep each other fresh because we are polar opposites in so many ways. And I think our strengths play really, really well off of each other. And we balance each other out. And that's also in witchcraft. And while we've not done actual spell work together very much, just hearing what she has to say about her work with spirit, you know, and things like that, it's just, it's a wonderful connection to another side of things that's not natural to me, but through her I can feel it, if that makes sense. We're very energetically connected, and I am where I am because of her and vice versa. Our commitment to what we've done, I would not have grown and be doing, I wouldn't be calling up Baba Yaga if not for Charlye. You know, like that just would have never happened. It had, we had to, it took us each other, both of us. And so definitely, definitely her. Let me see, number three. Will you find me lame if I say you? 

Kim: That would be weird, but... not lame. Because who the hell am I? (laughs)

Macy: Okay but seriously though like I...

Kim: Well if I was actually like an important person I would, but who the hell am I?

Macy: Well but you do amaze me all of the time. Because, and I think it's, you're so fucking practical. And the shit that you do with your spell work, and it's amazing. Like, and I don't always, and for so many reasons, dude, like I, you put out so much content for one, and I don't know how you do it, and I don't know where you find the time or the energy, and that's not witchcraft specific but it's, you're just always up to something, dude, and that's amazing. But I don't know, like just I've learned a lot from you. Just through communicating...

Kim: This is gonna make me cry, what the hell? 

Macy: Well, just talking, you know, just like our little random Instagram conversations, you know, like I can just ask you shit, and I know you're gonna have an answer to it. Like you fucking always do! And I just little things that I do. I know, because I've kind of picked them up from you. Like the way that I make my egg powder is exactly the way that you make yours. You know, little things like that. Like I put the extra herbs in it and shit, and it's exactly the same. And just kind of taking that attitude of, if you have this, use it, you know? And that's turned into a big part of my practice. And I've just kind of seen you operate in that way of using what you have and trying to become more sufficient, self-sufficient. And I don't know, it's just a big part of it. It's very inspiring to me. 

Kim: My gosh, that's... Thank you. 

Macy: Plus, it's amazing that you literally might actually be our first listener that's not family. We can't pinpoint it actually, but like, we have our suspicions. And that's cool. Like, you know, that's just wild. 

Kim: That's nuts. 

Macy: And I love that. Like, I love that our early crew is still around. Like, I mean, like you like, first five listeners are still here. And that just gives me so much hope, because like we were talking about the imposter syndrome, every now and again, I do wonder like, how is this existing? Like, how have we not run this into the ground and how have we not gotten on y'all's nerves? That's the biggest question that I think a lot. Like, how are y'all not just fucking done with us by 15 minutes into the episode?

Kim: Because you feel like family. 

Macy: I guess so... I guess so! That's good. We weasel our way into your hearts. 

Kim: You just made me have actual literal tears, so. 

Macy: I think that's the most refreshing thing of all, because one thing that Charlye and me have that is very rare together is that we have exactly the same sense of humor. It is perfect. And we both think each other are the funniest fucking people that have ever walked the planet. And I'm so glad that that translates, because so much of it is just us cracking one another up. And I'm glad that other people think that we're funny, and not just us thinking each other are funny. That's good. It's just good to know.

Kim:  I went and looked... when you guys mentioned that you got not-five star reviews. I was like what, how dare you? Who did that? And I went and looked, and I was like...

Macy: They're fucking hilarious.

Kim: Who are you people? What do you want out of your life? (laughs)

Macy: We read them and we're just like, we can't even be mad. We're just like yeah, you're right. You don't need to listen to us. Like we are not your bag, and I guess that is okay.

Kim:  I don't think I want to be friends with that person.

Macy: Yeah it's to the point now to when we get one it's almost just like a, oh, let's see what the press says today, you know? Because we're in it now, we're in it. We can't change and suddenly start becoming less a novice.

Kim:  That would be... You would lose listeners. 

Macy: We'd lose listeners. And that's the thing, when we were like... 

Kim: Because we're here for it. 

Macy: We tried to be courteous and we're like, oh, we'll put the bullshit after the credits and see how that goes. And they were like, no, don't do that. Like put the bullshit where the bullshit belongs, damn it. So here we are. 

Kim: Put the bullshit after the credits, but leave the bullshit, there's just extra bullshit at the end. 

Macy: Just put more bullshit, we need more bullshit! And that's wonderful. 

Kim: I'm here for the bullshit, that's part of the draw. 

Macy: Y'all just let us run wild with it, and like fucking Rocko and Lazer, you know?

Kim: It really is like hanging out. 

Macy: I'm just so glad. I really am. It's just, it's wonderful. Because we're both natural creatives and we love to create. We have imaginations that are so fucking huge and it's so nice that we can just be completely ourselves with our stupid ideas, and they resonate. It is, it's wonderful. 

Kim: It's ruined me for other podcasts! (laughs) If there's not two, there has to be two people or I'm just like, this is kind of bland.

Macy:  I, it's ruined me, like just mine and Charlye's connection and our just ability to, it, we're not putting on voices and we're not like, it's just literally a conversation. That has ruined me on podcasts. Like if, if they're like putting on a, you know, like, you know, the voices, you know, like I just can't, or if they don't perfect, this is kind of like, hmm. But if they don't perfectly jive together, I'm out. And that's probably a little bit ridiculous, but I've found such comfort in being able to converse with Charlye in that way, that it's like if I'm going to listen to another podcast, I want to hear the same kind of flow. I don't want to be made uneasy. 

Kim: That's why I listen to you and Ear Biscuits, and that's almost it. 

Macy: I need to listen to them. I just keep hearing wonderful things. 

Kim: It's fascinating to me that they met in first grade and they're still best friends.

Macy:  That's like...

Kim: It's fascinating. 

Macy: I don't know. That's cosmic at that point. 

Kim: I didn't even like my sister for the first 20, 30 years.

Macy: Yeah, I don't know anyone. I don't communicate with a single, I don't think, person anymore from that young. I mean, that's amazing. 

Kim: I know! It fascinates me so I kind of have to listen to see is this still happening? 

Macy: Are y'all still buddies? 

Kim: So alien to me. 

Macy: Yeah yeah and and I'm a bit, I'm kind of like a bit of a podcast like Judas. I'm not very loyal I guess. Like I kind of bounce around a lot depending on my mood and like if I want to hear fiction, or if I want to hear, you know, this or that, which I don't know if that's a bad thing. That like as a podcaster I should be more avid in my like podcast research and listening to others. 

Kim: Just be who you are. 

Macy: But I just, yeah, I don't want to do that and I don't. I just don't have it in me to do that. So I listen to my like handful of just like ones that I kind of cycle through and I'll leave them for a few months and I'll come back.

Kim: I do that.

Macy: That keeps me that keeps me good, it's my podcast pantry. 

Kim: Although remember how you described what it was like to get back into reading fiction?

Macy:  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kim: I grew up listening to Like radio serials on NPR.

Macy:  Oh, yeah.

Kim: And then they, back to Rhett and Link again, I can't escape, but it came out with Ronstadt, which is a serial. It feels like that. It's so great. 

Macy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know exactly what you mean. I felt the same way when I, the first podcast, I'm going to be very cliche right now. The first podcast I ever listened to was Serial.  And I ever, I was working at my corporate job and I'd never listened to a podcast before, it was 2016, I had never listened to a podcast before and I listened to Serial. And it did sweep me up. Like I just, that medium, like it gave me the same feeling like that, that swelling of like excitement that comes, the same love of like when I fell into fiction. Like I do remember the first time I fell into, like, a podcast like that that was telling a story and it did catch me, you know. 

Kim: It's fun. I miss it. Like I'm excited every Tuesday. A new episode of Ronstadt's coming out!

Macy:  What is it? 

Kim: It is, it's like a story about a guy who can see a different plane.

Macy:  Oh, so it's fictional. 

Kim: Yeah. 

Macy: Cool. 

Kim: Yeah. Yeah. It's like a serial fan. It's like, like Lord of the Rings was what I listened to with my dad. Lord of the Rings and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. So it's that kind of feel. 

Macy: Cool. Oh, yeah, that's interesting. 

Kim: It's not deep like that. 

Macy: Yeah, but it's a story. 

Kim: Yeah, it's a fun story. 

Macy: Oh, yeah, that's interesting. I've never, I don't know if I've ever listened to like a long-running, like season-long, like kind of podcast. I guess I'd listen, there was one I listened to called The Gray Rooms and then one called Lime Town and they were fiction, but I think I finished them. Yeah, and I did like it. You're right, I should do that. I might listen to it. I do like a good story podcast.

Kim: And it's only like 30, 40 minutes, so It gets me to work and halfway home and then I call my mom. (both laugh)

Macy:  Dude I love commute car phone, like commute phone calls. There's something just so wonderful about them.

Kim: And they have a definite end because I actually hate talking on the phone. "All right, gotta get off the phone now."

Macy: "Getting out of my car."

Kim: "Gotta open the gate. Bye!" (laughs) Is there anything else you want to bring up that maybe you wanted to talk about? And I didn't ask. 

Macy: I don't know. I feel like we've kind of danced all over the place in this, in this little chat here, solved a lot of the world's problems. 

Kim: That's the goal.

Macy: Yeah, you know, Solved a lot of the world's problems...

Kim: That and world domination.

Macy: ... right and left over here. That's what we're doing. We're just fixing it all. I don't know I guess I would just, I don't have anything else like to to talk about. I don't know, just everybody, let's just be nice. How's that? Let's just all be nice to each other. Those are my like Mr. Rogers-esque closing statement. Let's just be each other's neighbors. Let's be nice. See how that, let's try that out. 

Kim: I do try to do that, actually. 

Macy: I believe that. Hey, believe that whole heartedly. I don't worry about you. 

Kim: (pauses) That's because I hide it well. (both laugh) So who do you think I should have on the show next? Not next, but who would you like to have this, who would you like to hear this kind of conversation from? You can't say Charlye, she's already agreed to come. 

Macy: I know I, I think it would be pretty cool to hear a conversation between you and Jordyn Moon. 

Kim: Oh, yeah, I was going to, I was thinking about asking her. 

Macy: I think that would be fascinating. She's a fascinating person to talk to anyway. I just think that would be a really, really good conversation. Let me see. I'm trying to think if there's any beans that can come to mind. Oh, I don't know if you've ever been connected to Rowan from Season of the Witch or not, but he's great. We actually did an interview with him for his show, Season of the Witch. He lives in England and he has this beautiful, posh, gorgeous, sweet, sassy little accent. And he was great to talk to. So I would recommend Rowan. And let me see, I feel like I'm missing like a very glaring bean that I'm just missing entirely. And it's stressing me out. 

Kim: Just send me a voice clip and yell it. 

Macy: (laughs) "Hey, this one." Another, I think several, like it's honestly like... 

Kim: I do have my eye in there. 

Macy: Yeah, like Penelope from Prairie Fire, Herbal. I think that, I've never spoken to him directly, but I think Zerick from Carson Valley Creations would be a fun one to talk to. Just a bunch, there's just so many. I would even say Sarah from Bright Witch. 

Kim: She's on my list too. 

Macy: She's such a creative powerhouse, oh my gosh. Yeah, you know, there's just so many just wonderful people out there that I think not only would be great to talk to you, but would be super, super fun to talk to and be into it. 

Kim: : And I actually have the two surprise questions. Are you ready?

Macy: Bring 'em.

KIm:  First, I want you to recommend something. It can be anything a snack, a story, a song, a thought, practice, whatever. 

Macy: I'm going to recommend just because it is the most relevant to me currently. It's an album, it's a record, nothing, it's not witchy. But Shaky Graves came out with, and it's actually like a 10 year old album, but he like just released it and it's kind of his, it's just a cobbled together collection of his like... live tracks and other songs that he recorded like 10 years ago and some, you know, it's just very interesting. And it's called Roll the Bones X, like the number, just X, because for ten. And it's just a remarkable album. It's so good. And it is when you listen to it, you are hearing somebody making music that is precisely the music they want to be making, and for nobody else. And that's always refreshing to hear, even if it's not like your type of music.

Kim: It's usually the best. 

Macy: Yeah, and it's weird, he's creative and he just picks weird notes and harmonies and he does what he wants to do. And I'm actually, I'm seeing him, this is relevant, I'm seeing him tonight. We're going to see him. And I absolutely cannot wait, but I highly recommend Roll the Bones X. Play it in order because it's a story.

Kim: Oh, okay.

Macy:  Like, throughout, well, throughout it is a story. There's three audio tracks of him telling the story of his haunted guitar. And he plays this like old, like 1930s, like Gibson that belonged to this man who fought, like stormed the beaches of Normandy, literally. And his hands were burned in a, like, infirmary fire. He saved a whole bunch of soldiers and burned his hands, so every day he had to, like, break his cartilage just to play this guitar. 

Kim: Holy crap.

Macy:  And when he died, this guitar passed to this guy, and this guitar then from him passed to Shaky Graves. And that's just, like, his name, you know? And he's telling the story of, like, getting this guitar and learning to play this haunted guitar, and this man Jay Manley who owned it before. It's a fascinating record. It's so good. And that's my recommendation, Roll the Bones X by Shaky Graves. Play it in order. 

Kim: Wait, is that a real story? 

Macy: Yeah, it's his story. He's telling the story. 

Kim: Holy crap. 

Macy: And it's like, so throughout the album, you hear Shaky Graves having a conversation with the guy he got the guitar from. And they're just telling the story of how he got, like the day they met, when he first got the guitar, how he learned to play it and stuff like that. And so it's just like throughout the record is just audio tracks just like this. It's great. 

Kim: Cool. Okay, second question. I want you to tell me a story that you love to tell. It doesn't matter what it's about. Just one that you enjoy telling. That you can tell the drop of a hat. 

Macy: Have I ever told you the story about how I almost had my arm broken trying to break up a dog fight? 

Kim: Not to my recollection.

Macy: Like did I say it in an episode or did I ever say that on a live? Do you know what I'm talking about? It's a stupid story.

Kim: No.

Macy:  Okay. This is maybe my favorite story to tell. I don't even have to think it's the one. So when I was in college, I lived in a rent house in a semi-sketch neighborhood. I wouldn't say fully sketch, but semi-sketch neighborhood. And it was one of those neighborhoods to where it was a circle. And so we were on the inside of the circle, which meant that our backyard shared a fence with the neighbors, like on the other side of the circle. Does that make sense? 

Kim: Yeah. 

Macy: So we, and being a neighborhood of rent houses, it was a college town, there's just tons of turnover all of the time. So you never know who's gonna like be your neighbor one month and like your backyard, you know, shit like that. And so at the time, I had Gizzy, my little red corgi, and Jorah. I had had Jorah for about a year now. And he was with me. And we had a big backyard, kinda, and we lived in this house. Well, so we have these new neighbors show up. And they, in their backyard, put an actual, and I'm not like happy about it, like, it's sad, but an actual fighter pit. And I mean, scarred up, everything. Like, you could tell this was a fighting dog. And it was sharing a back fence with us. And I knew immediately that this was going to be a problem, because I let the dogs out and he was out and he was like trying to get through the fence. And he started digging, like under, to get under the fence to get to my dogs. And I was like, Jesus fucking Christ. And so I like went and got some landscaping timbers and I tried to, and I like talked to the people and I was like, look, this is going to be a problem. Like you've got to figure out what to do about this. And of course they didn't. And so I do want to say the story does not end bad, but it sounds like it's gonna, but then it turns into absolute stupidity. So, my roommate had a little Yorkie named Zeus that also lived with us. And so all three dogs were out in the backyard one day. And I was just kind of like in my room and my room looked out into the backyard and I start hearing like dogs going at it. And I look out the window and this dog has dug its head under the fence and has the little Yorkie by the chest. Not that, but like got by his like chest muscles, you know, and he won't let go. And he's like got his head and Gizzy and Jorah are like biting this dog's head, you know, trying to get him to let go. 

Kim: Good for them!

Macy: Well, so I at the time was like dating this guy, I dated him for like two months, you know, it's college. And he was, he was over that day. And he, and so I see this start happening and I just yell some sort of expletive noise to get everybody's attention that something was wrong. And so who was in the house at the time was me, the ex-boyfriend, and the co-owner of the dog, the boyfriend, not the girlfriend, whose actual dog it was, but like he had the dog through extension, you know. 

Kim: Step-parent. 

Macy: Sure! Yes. And thankfully, the dog's mother was not at home. And so we don't really know what to do, but we all just start heading to the backyard outside. You know, we just run to this dog. And so luckily, ex-boyfriend, well, semi-luckily and unluckily, ex-boyfriend has the good foresight to grab a broom on the way out. Like a, you know, like a, just an aluminum broom. And so we get out there and we really don't know what to do about this situation, because the dog is in like kill mode and won't let go. And for some reason, the step-parent, we'll call him the step-parent, okay, he lifts up the bottom of the fence. I think it was panic. And so that allows the dog to pull the little dog onto his side of the fence.

Kim: Oh no!

Macy: And this is what I was talking about earlier, like in danger moments? I just scaled the chain link fence. And I went and I grabbed the dog's neck, the big one. I grabbed its neck and tried to just like, choke hold it. Something. You know, it was bigger than I was, but it was just like, I wasn't even thinking. And then that was the same thing in that moment with my arm around its neck, I was like, "Well, this was fucking stupid." You know? And so then as, you know, cause it was a stupid idea, boyfriend jumps the fence and I like to think, you know, because I just, I just, because of what happened afterwards, I paint this in my mind, even though I don't think this happened at all. But I like to think he like scaled the fence and he like, he landed in like an action hero pose. And, you know, and he, he rears back with all of it. He's got this broom, right? You know, he rears back with all of his might and goes to hit this dog just to shock it. But he misses...

Kim: Oh, no, oh NO!

Macy: ... and he breaks the whole broom over my forearm. Like, snaps it over my forearm, doesn't hit the dog, and I just make some sort of, like, HAAAARGH! noise and fall over. (Kim laughs) Like, just from the shockwaves of what just happened. So it's pure fucking pandemonium at this point. And I'm just sitting there on the ground, like, with my arm, and he's trying to smack this dog, and somehow he lets go of Zeus. And so I grab Zeus with one fucking arm. But then the problem is, I can't climb the fence, because he deadened my arm. I couldn't climb the fence, and so I'm stuck with this dog, and I handed the dog to the step-parent, and so then this boyfriend just comes, and it's like... the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And so he goes to push me over the fence, but he launches me over the fence and I land again on said arm. And I'm so fucking pissed, so angry at this point. And so, I mean, the dust settles. 

Finally, and Zeus, we take him to the vet, you know. And he's, incredibly, okay. It's amazing. And so it's like the dog just happened to bite him right in the chest. You know where dogs have loose chest skin? That's all it was. And so it's like all he did was kind of like, because he bit him in that loose part, it just kind of jiggled around and it like tore some muscles, but he was, there wasn't even like any blood hardly. But so we're at the vet's office and I am, I don't, I don't think I'm white from shock, but I am white from adrenaline and the worst goddamn pain in my left arm ever. And I am SEETHING about it. And so I'm just sitting there and I've got my arm, and I just had to look like hell on wheels. Because the vet looks at me and is like, "Do you uh, do you want some ice, or can we get you anything?" We're the vet's office.  I'm like... and so the vet gives me an ice pack and I'm just sitting there fuming and I later find out that it was pretty much, I got a bone bruise from that shit. And it's one of my favorite stories because it's just stupid. It's just everything about it is stupid. The actions, it was all a bad idea. But luckily, Zeus the Yorkie survived to live a happy life. 

Kim: (still laughing) That's everything I wanted to be. Oh no.

Macy:  That was my time in college.

Kim: Oh, man. (takes deep breath)

Macy: So there's your, I hope you got some good stories out of the gig. 

Kim: Holy crap, that was perfection. And I love stupid things anyway. 

Macy: I, you know... 

Kim: That's why one of my favorite shirts says Taco Tuesday and it's a picture of pizza.

Macy: (laughs) I know exactly what you mean, that shit gets me. It's like picking the really childish, stupid words of Mad Libs. It's just a good time. Oh, God. 

Kim: It's exactly that. 

Macy: Well, this was a good time, dude. I feel like a wrung-out dishrag. I had a good time. 

Kim: Good. Well, thank you so much for agreeing to talk to me and come on the show. 

Macy: You're welcome. And again, I guess if you listen to this and you're into it, you can catch, and Charlye, my co-host, will be doing one of these as well. So if you want to taste, you want to get a taster of both of us before you just put both feet in. Hey, I get it. But you can find us pretty much on anywhere, podcasts, live or on Spotify, Apple, podcast, Stitcher, Podbean, everywhere, all of them. And it's the Witch Bitch Amateur Hour. And you know, you can kind of start anywhere, I would say. I would say you don't have to, this is not one to start from the beginning. I never start podcasts from the beginning. I start backwards. I work my way backwards. 

Kim: Oh no.

Macy:  Well, because I feel like that's when you're going to get the most current versions of the people and their most current quality. And then if you fall in love with them, you'll be more tolerable to past versions and past quality. 

Kim: That makes sense. 

Macy: Yeah. But I am, if you want to listen, that's where we are. Socials, we're on Instagram. We don't post ever, hardly. It's at witchbitchamateurhour. I have my own account at Macy Anise and then Facebook, that's witch amateur hour. And then Twitter. 

Kim: No bitch on Facebook. 

Macy: Yeah, no bitch on Facebook. There's Twitter, which is bitch hour. We don't post that ever, but we have Corey who does most of that for us. And I guess that's everything. I think I don't know. Charlye usually does the socials part. So I feel like I feel myself floundering.

Kim: Join their Patreon, patreon.com/ witch bitch amateur hour?

Macy:  Yeah, I think. It's easy to find. Probably the witch bitch amateur hour. We're WBAH podcast. We use them both interchangeably.

Kim:  Well, thanks again. It was fun to actually talk to you. 

Macy: I know. I enjoyed it. I feel I have the nice feeling of, you know, like post good conversation. Very content. 

Kim: Well, have a good rest of your day. Have fun at the concert.

Macy:  I will. All right. And see, this is the thing, is my Texas coming out. We don't know how to say goodbye, so.

Kim: I do.

Macy: (laughs) I do! So I will take my leave, but thank you again.

Kim: I learned it from my friend.  We'd be like "I guess this is the end. Alright, bye."

Macy: See, that's how my granddad is. Like you don't know when the phonecall is gonna end. It will be mid-sentence. He'll be like, all right, well, so, bye. And it's over. And so I need to channel that more but I will I will pull from you and I'll bid you adieu. 

Kim: Okay. Bye. 

Macy: Bye, boy. 

Kim: Thanks for listening to this episode of Your Average Witch. You can find us all around the internet on Instagram at Youraveragewitchpodcast, Facebook at facebook.com/youraveragewitchpodcast, at youraveragewitch.com, and at your favorite podcast service. Want to help the podcast grow? Leave a review. You can review us on Amazon and Apple podcasts, and now you can rate us on Spotify. You just might hear your review read at the end of an episode. To rate your Average Witch on Spotify, click the home key, click your Average Witch podcast, and then leave a rating. If you'd like to recommend someone for the podcast, like to be on it yourself, or if you'd like to advertise on the podcast, send an email to youraveragewitchpodcast at gmail.com. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next Tuesday.