In this episode I'm talking to Kate St Clair, author of the book The Ptolemy Project. Kate tells us how she writes using magic, shares how growing up in Texas helped form her practice, and discusses how books themselves are magic.
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Kate St Clair, author of The Ptolemy Project.
Growing up in Texas, and books are actual magic
Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where we talk about witch life, witch stories, and sometimes a little witchcraft, on the full and new moon every month. In this episode I'm talking to Kate St. Clair, author of the book The Ptolemy Project. Kate tells us how she writes using magic, shares how growing up in Texas helped shape her practice, and discusses how books are magic. I'm also excited to let everybody know that in February I plan on putting out a new episode every week. You'll get three interviews a month, plus a catch-all episode with interesting little bits and pieces of conversations, plus hear what's happening over in Kacie's corner of the world. I'm also opening up a few slots for the spellboxes over in Patreon land. Even if you don't want to commit to the spellbox once a month, people at the $5 tier can enjoy digital content like podcast bonuses, spell crafting videos with podcast guests, join the private Facebook group, and of course access to the much-touted Marco Polo family. Be sure you listen to the sneak peek at some of the bonus content at the end of this episode. You can learn more at patreon.com/cleverkimscurios. Now let's get to the stories.
Kim: Hi Kate, welcome to the show.
Kate: Oh, hi, how's it going?
Kim: It's going great. Would you please introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and what you do and where they can find you on the internet?
Kate: Totally. My name is Kate St. Clair. I am an author in Austin, Texas. I write young adult fiction. My latest book, The Ptolemy Project, came out on September 13th. It's available anywhere books are sold. It's available in some brick and mortar places like Target, you know, some places like that. You can follow me on social media at Kate-St-Clair, no E, very annoying. But that is my handle everywhere, so you can follow me there.
Kim: What made you decide to do what you do?
Kate: I don't know if I really had much of a choice when it comes to being a writer. My earliest memories are of writing. I distinctly remember being in pre-K and trying to write a story about a whale on the wall and getting in trouble for it and then being devastated because I was like, no, I have to finish the story. Everyone has to know what happens to this whale. That was kind of, I think, always going to be what I did. And also growing up, I didn't have a TV in my house until very late in life.
I think I was maybe 12 or 13 before my parents actually got a TV, but there were books on every single wall. Like every single wall was a bookshelf. So books were always in my life and such a great resource and such a great escape. And I just fell in love with them and I've been in love with them my whole life. I think writing is probably the true love of my life and I don't know if I was ever going to do anything else. I flirted with the idea of being a spy, but I am terrible at picking up languages. And then also I cave under just the slightest pressure. Also a terrible liar. So it was just kind of a bad combination. So it wasn't going to happen. But...
Kim: Me too.
Kate: So it was just a terrible combination. So it wasn't gonna happen.
Kim: Yeah, I can't. I can't lie.
Kate: I think that's a good thing.
Kim: Would you say that... yeah. Well, most of the time, even the good kind though. I'm like, "Yeah, that looks great." I know you can't see me, everybody else, but I made a face that said "That looks awful."
Kate: Your face gives you away.
Kim: Yeah, I used to get in trouble in class, in school, because somebody would say something that I disagree with or thought was dumb and my face would say that very clearly.
Kate: Yeah. "Yes, I loved your original song performance. Soooo great."
Kim: Yeah, that face exactly. So interesting.
Kate: But see, I love people like that, because you know that they're telling you the truth. I feel like there's a comfort in knowing someone's being authentic. Kim: Oh, yeah, that's super me. So would you say that what you do is magical?
Kate: Writing in general?
Kim: Mhmmm.
Kate: I think so. I can't speak for how it is for all writers. But for me, it does really feel like being connected to what I call in my mind like the source energy. I also believe in something called the collective unconscious, which I think is sort of the shared subconscious of everybody. And that is a place that we go to, a lot of times when you dream, or you know, a place you can access during meditation. But I think that's why so many of us have similar creative ideas that then get filtered through our own personal experience.
But there's so like, I mean, I think there's only nine original storylines. It's very difficult to create a unique, a totally unique storyline. Yeah. But I think that's because like we all share this, you know, collective imagination almost. So for me, it's very magical, especially with this last book, I did use actual magic and spells throughout the whole process. So you know, that made it very magical for me.
Kim: Here's why I think it's magic. Just writing in general, and stories: because you can make me see things.
Kate: That's very true.
Kim: I love that. I love words. I love the way you can make people see and hear and feel things just by words on paper. That's insane to me.
Kate: I love that idea that imagination in general is magic, because it is. It is. Like we can't really put scientific evidence on that. And to me, that is sort of what magic breaks down to. It's stuff that we can't explain, but is very real. You know, it's, I don't think we can quantify it, but it's there. And it doesn't mean to me that at some point we won't be able to do that. We won't be able to say, you know, here's what magic brings.
Kim: Yeah, exactly. Naysayers. Exactly, naysayers!
Kate: Yeah.
Kim: We just haven't figured out how to measure it yet.
Kate: Exactly, but like it doesn't make it less magical, you know?
Kim: Or real. Or less real.
Kate: Like, I always think about radiation, which I know is taking it to a not fun place. But radiation is invisible, and yet can actually kill you. And before, like before the human race understood what radiation was, that, you know, like what a crazy thing, that would be magic. It would be like, this is just some dark magic that's affecting my body.
Kim: Or dysentery.
Kate: And there's, radiation's just been present... Yeah, exactly. Germs. People didn't believe in germs. That was like a crazy idea to them. That there were like...
Kim: Demons.
Kate: Yeah! Basically, you didn't pray hard enough. That's why you're, you know-
Kim: Shitting yourself to death.
Kate: ...yeah, that demon's trying to get out of you.
Kim: Okay. Now, what does it mean to you when you call yourself a witch?
Kate: This is such an interesting question. And I was, I struggle with what, what is a witch? You know, what is doing witchcraft other than living with intention and living with the natural flow of the life around you, and the planet that we're on, and the cosmos around us. Which seems like you should be doing that anyway. Like, we are so connected to all of that. It's, it is sort of strange to me that witchcraft is so taboo and separated from that idea, but that is what you're doing when you're doing witchcraft. You're saying, "I'm working with the universe to co-create my own reality." Yeah, that makes sense to me. We're so connected to all of it. You're working with nature. You're working with the moon cycles. You're working with your own body's connection to these things. That's sort of what being a witch is to me.
And then using these tools to focus that power, that energy, to make real change in your life. So that is what being a witch is to me. However, I do think that there is some degree of hereditary witch because there are some people who I think that just comes so naturally to them. And it tends to be passed down through generations. I don't know whether it's just that they grow up with these practices so they come easier, or if they're just inherently sort of more powerful at harnessing that energy. But I do also believe in that, as well. So I don't know, like I guess, is my answer. I'm not totally sure what the definition of a witch is. I don't know if it's solid for me.
Kim: Well speaking of hereditary, do you have any family history with witchcraft or people practicing any sort of witchy things?
Kate: So I am adopted. So I don't know my like family history with witches. But my I was sort of adopted into a family where the matriarchal side are very witchy. And like my sisters are practicing witches. I was in a coven with them for some time. And so you know, yeah, I do have I do have that familial tie. And I would say that they are blood witches, you know, like I think that they have that inherent power. Not that I don't have access to that power, or to the, you know, like the wealth of energy in the universe. But I don't know, like it just comes so naturally to them. Whereas I feel like I have to be very intentional with my spell work and that kind of stuff. Whereas they can kind of think things into being. And I think it's really cool. But hmm. What are your thoughts on it?
Kim: How dare you.
Kate: I'm very curious.
Kim: Who's interviewing whom?
Kate: Well no, I'm very curious.
Kim: What do I think about? That's interesting. That's a neat take that I haven't heard or thought about before. I know that my family has not openly... or that I don't think my mom would call herself a witch in any way. But she still had real witchy shit happen when I was growing up. I remember it. But does that make me an hereditary witch? I don't know. I don't know. Things do come naturally to me, but some things don't. I think that's just like everything where some people can do math. Not me, but some people can.
Kate: You don't need math, you have magic. Why don't they judge you on that? Pop quiz in magic.
Kim: Oh, Lord, that would make me have some sort of heart attack. But I... I find it very hard to put myself in other people's shoes. So...
Kate: What's your star sign?
Kim: That comes up... uh, Taurus.
Kate: Okay.
Kim: Because I find it weird that people don't think the way... I'm probably, I'm very, I'm relatively certain I'm on the spectrum. I really find it hard to relate to people who don't think the way I do. So I don't really understand how to communicate things that come natural to me. I don't know how naturally to me. I don't know how to help someone see or understand or feel the things that I feel are necessary for whatever thing I'm working on at the time. So I don't know how that's even relevant to what you asked me.
Kate: I mean, it wouldn't have come up if it wasn't. You know, like your mind wouldn't have associated it if it wasn't. But I think maybe what you're trying to say is that like, it's hard to get into the mindset of someone who this stuff doesn't come naturally to.
Kim: Like you said, I think it's like, I think some people have, it comes to people more easily. Like me and math. I can barely even do basic math. And then some people can do like calculus in their... Maybe they're, I don't know, I don't know. They can do advanced math in their heads. I don't know how that works. And I don't know how magic works.
Kate: Yeah.
Kim: I just know that some things I can do, and some I can't. And I do think that, for most people, they have the ability to learn things like that, just like with math. And it might not come easily, but I still think they could do it up to a point. Like I'm probably not going to get past algebra ever. But-
Kate: Oh, my mind shut down when you said the word calculus. It was just like no, no, no. Kate has left the...
Kim: Yeah, I don't even know. I have no idea what calculus even looks like. Because I haven't gotten past algebra 1.
Kate: Is it the one with the letters? Yeah.
Kim: I don't know. Anyway, that's my thought on that. That I think we all have the potential. Yeah. It's just whether or not you want to try to do it. And even sometimes when you don't want to, if you have enough potential, it comes out either way. You just don't have any control over it.
Kate: Yeah. I think also, too, like for me, I really struggled with it at the beginning because I didn't really understand, you know, manifestation mindset. I didn't understand when you were doing this spell how to make it, how to, how to feel like it had already happened. And how to envision that. I was in a place of like sort of grasping for things, and feeling that space of lack, which in magic, it just completely stymies you.
Because you're telling yourself inside, like, I don't have this and I need it. You know, and that's like that doesn't really work in magic. I feel like magic responds to... Like calls to like, right? That's what we say. So when you're in that space of, I'm so, you know, I'm so grateful and like this is so... everything is so great. I'm just like ready to add this, this thing to my life. I'm ready to call this in. Magic responds to that, at least in my experience with it. But when I'm like, I have to have this, I'm so unhappy. If I don't get this, like, I will not be happy. And then it, you know, my spells wouldn't work, and I would be so sad and upset about that. And I would look at my sisters who like, their spells were working all the time.
Kim: Oh, that's the worst.
Kate: I know! And that's like something that I think a lot of baby witches struggle with is being like, "Why are my spells not working?" And you know, they do. Sometimes it doesn't look like what you think it's going to look like. And so that you have to be in a better place to call in what you actually need. You know?
Kim: So here's a theory as someone who can't lie. Is bad at it. To another, from one bad liar to another bad liar. What if that has something to do with your potential for being able to do magic? Because you can't lie and say, oh, I have this. You have to actually.... it has to be a thing.
Kate: But it's not a lie. It's, it's, it's-
Kim: But if you really want it, and you're like, "I'm trying to imagine what it's like so I can manifest this," and you're just not able to. It's just a thought that popped in my head while you were speaking.
Kate: Yeah. For me, it's not... it's less imagining. It's more connecting to that part in your timeline where this has already happened. Because it has, if you're doing magic, like magic doesn't work on the corporeal timeline that we do. Like, you know, magic can touch anywhere. So yeah, for me, it's, it's knowing that this is something that's already happened and being able to, you know, pull that out of the ethos without- but like, you know, if you're in this space of, I really want this. I think you're putting out into the universe that you may not get this. This may not happen. So it's less sort of formed in the future. It's getting real abstract, I feel like. It's just very abstract on a Sunday.
Kim: Do you have any daily practices that you'll share? Or regular practices if they aren't daily, because I don't even have a daily practice?
Kate: Yeah. It depends on if I'm actively tending a spell or not. So I mean, I just finished the six month long spell, which needed me to light candles every single night. So and, you know, like, think about what steps I took and, you know, trying to bring that to fruition. So with that one, I was lighting those candles every single night on my altar. And that was, that was sort of my daily practice. But if I'm actively trying to write, or trying to like, call in a new idea, I will definitely have a daily practice of candles, yes, oil anointing... It just sort of depends, I guess, on what spells I have going on. So right now, I'm going to have to find a new one because I feel sort of like sad and empty without lighting those candles every night.
Kim: Hmm.
Kate: But that's an easy one to do every day, you know, if you need to be...
Kim: That's actually the one I do, is candles.
Kate; Yeah. Candles are great. I feel like candles were sort of my first entry into magic at all, you know. I think the first thing I ever did was get a Hecate candle and light it and say an incantation to her. It was essentially like, I really want to be a witch. I would really like to start on this journey. Can you help me? And then she introduced me to my sisters and she, you know, I was finding all of these resources. Like a coworker just left a book of spells open on the computer.
You know, it was very much like she was, she was guiding me there, and she took me down that path. Which is, I've come to learn, what she does, you know? Like she'll come to anyone who calls her, and she will help you on that path. So that was, you know, the candle was the first thing. And I remember being like so nervous about buying that candle and being like, "Oh god, like, they're going to judge me." I was with someone at the time who came from a Catholic household and was really weirded out by the witchery. So like I had to hide her and like, had her in my bathroom and just, you know, lit and did this ceremony by myself in my bathroom. And now I'm very open about it.
Like, I have my whole altar and I'll, if I'm, you know, feeling fancy and I have house cleaners come over and I'll be like "Yeah, just like, you know, leave the altar. Like you don't need to do anything about the altar." So less shame now, which is a nice feeling. It's an interesting thing having people in your house when it is like, warded and witchy, and seeing what their reactions are. So one of my sisters gave me, I think it's called a poppet. It's just a little figurine that I keep on my altar who represents like sort of the spirit of fall, but it's a little doll and she's looking up. And one time, I don't even know who it was, but someone turned it around because I guess they felt uncomfortable like with it looking at them.
Yeah, it was very interesting. And then I mean, so when I first moved into this house, I was really self-conscious about living alone, and very scared of it. So I really, really warded it a lot. Like put, selenite over like every single doorway, like everything was very protected. And when the cable guys came over, one of them mentioned something about like feeling feeling very uncomfortable in the house. And I was like "Well, then maybe you should leave. Like if you intend me harm, because obviously you're feeling something." So yeah, you know, so it's very interesting. So you're missing out on like people getting freaked out by the witchiness, which is very fun.
Kim: The people that I have over are witches.
Kate: Well, there you go.
Kim: And that's only like once a year. Except for Ken's friends, but they all know, because they, they all know when they're all welcome here because they're our friends. That's interesting. Would you say witchcraft changed your life?
Absolutely. The biggest change of my life. I'm a different person because of that one ritual, calling Hecate and her coming to help me. That was the start of, I think me, kind of discovering who I am and learning my own power. I had lived most of my life feeling completely disempowered. And I mean, really just like a crap person. I was like, if anyone hung out with me, I just felt so grateful that someone actually liked me, you know, and I couldn't believe that they did. But like, okay, that's not my business. I'll just be grateful for it, you know, and feeling very alone for a lot of it. Very isolated. I didn't feel like I even really knew myself that well. And you know, I was older when that happened. I think I was 26 or 27 when I finally made that decision.
And I had always loved witchcraft. And I'd always been really drawn to it and thought, you know, like, "Oh, that would just be so cool if I could do that." And I was very "superstitious," is what I used to say. Like that's what I think a lot of people say when they're still like in the broom closet and they don't want to come out. And you're like "Well, I'm superstitious. So, you know, I have rosemary by my door," or like, "I keep, you know, keep mirrors covered at night. Like I'm just superstitious. I'm not witchy." But making that decision, and then everything that happened afterwards, everything that came in to support me when I opened myself up to that kind of help.
And the people that I attract now, the people that like, we find each other, are all witchy. And I like to call it joining the network. I feel like once you kind of like get into that network, you start meeting those people. You start pulling them in. Or they pull you in, and you're in the same orbit. I think that's so beautiful.
Kim: That happened to me.
Kate: It happens all the time!
Kim: On the way back from Anahada's. I called a Lyft to get from the airport to my house. And the person, I watched them. Okay, you know how there's like the one, the closest road to the door of the airport, the exit, is for passenger pickup from a regular old car.
Kate: Right. And then there's like a median, and then there's another road for buses, and then there's another road for like cabs. So I was far enough away from the door that I couldn't go to where the pickup, like the regular car pickup was. I was out on the cab one, because that's where you're supposed to wait. And so I called my ride, like Uber, and I watched her go to the other one closer to the, closest to the door, which she's not supposed to do. And I texted and I said, "Hey, I'm over on the cab thing." And she sat there for like 10 minutes and I was like, "What are you doing, lady?" And then she just bailed! And I was like, "What the hell? How am I gonna get home?"
Kate: Oh my goodness.
Kim: And so Lyft sent another text saying your new ride is like two minutes away or whatever it is. So I got a new person. That person turned out to be a witch!
Kate: Yeah, you can't make this up.
Kim: Yeah, I was like, what is happening? It was really weird.
Kate: I love that. It happens all the time. Like all the people, too, that I know who are witchy, it happens to them too. And they're always so surprised. I'm like, "How are you so surprised? Like we know this is, you gotta start calling this in, you know? I think that's great.
Kim: Is there anything you wish was discussed more in the witch community? And "No" is a fine answer, because there's so much talking.
Kate: Discussed more... Like I said, I don't think that the Brujeria and Curandera is discussed as much. I don't think that it is as well known as some of the other magics. And I think that it should be. I think that those are really beautiful practices that, even if you're not doing them, I like that I would like for people to know more about them. But I do, well... this is going to be like verging on problematic, I guess, and maybe I shouldn't say it. But like I would love to know more about indigenous practices, the magic that they use.
I understand that as a white person, that is not accessible to me. And it is not something that I should ever try to recreate. But I love the snippets that I hear about it. And I wish that there was more sharing in that community just so that we could respect and understand that culture more. And I think there might be more respect in general for wanting to protect it. Because I think a lot of people right now are just sort of like, well, we don't know anything about the Lakota tribe. We don't know anything about the Cree. So why does it matter that their land is being taken? Why does it matter that we're losing this culture?
Whereas if you knew more about it, and it was more mainstream, and you understood how important these practices tied to this specific place are, I think there might be more outcry about it. But also like, it is completely their choice if they want to keep that private. I guess I'm just speaking from my own perspective. I'd be curious if it were discussed more, if there were people who are comfortable discussing it more openly.
Kim: What motivates you in your practice? What is like your biggest motivator?
Kate: This is, hmmm, okay. So for me, if I'm being selfish, my biggest motivator is obviously to live in happiness as long as it's not at the expense of someone else.
Kim: That's not selfishness, I don't think!
Kate: I mean, I think that's sort of the directive of all humans. I think that's sort of the goal of life, is to experience as much happiness and beauty as you can, as long as you're not hurting someone else. But on a grander scale, I do believe that I'm meant to be an author and I'm meant to affect people that way. That is sort of my platform that I get to try to shape humanity for better through writing. So for me, that's my biggest motivator when it comes to witchcraft as well.
It's saying, you know, this is what I want to do to help the collective. So can you help me do that? You know, universe powers, deities, whoever, you know, this team, can you help me use this one gift that I think I have. Because I am not talented at many things, but I know I can write. So that's the thing that I'm going to try to do the best work I can while I'm on this planet in this body. So yeah, that's sort of my biggest motivator, is trying to get to that point. Trying to say, "How do I help the most? And can you give me the tools to do that?"
Kim: I like it. Now I know what you just said, you don't think you're good at very many things or something?
Kate: I'm not. I'm good at writing. I'm good at beer pong.
Kim: That brings us to the next question. Good at beer pong?! Oh, I'm really good at smelling things. Who cares?
Kate: That's... *laughter*
KIm: Who cares if I can find fish in food, or I can find the dead animal under your house? No one cares about that. I cannot make money with it. However, this brings us...
Kate: Disagree.
Kim: Okay, well, yeah, my best friend was like "You should go to Paris and learn to be a perfumier" or however you, whatever they're called. I don't know. And I'm like, I'm 50.
Kate: Go to the, go to the Black Forest and find truffles. Make like thousands of dollars a truffle.
Kim: I'm not going to learn something new at this age. Wouldn't that be great? Yeah, I'm gonna hire myself out instead of buying a pig to try.
Kate: There you go. Just do yourself, one woman workshop. There you go. Truffle hunter.
Kim: But this leads me to the next question, which is imposter syndrome.
Kate: Yeah.
Kim: I feel like you got some there.
Kate: Oh, sure.
Kim: If you feel like you're not good at stuff, how do you handle that?
Kate; Well, and also when it comes to witchcraft, too, going back to the idea of like born witches versus people who find it, I think there was a lot of imposter syndrome when I was first starting out and saying, you know, well, it seems like my spells aren't working. Am I just kind of playing? Is that what this is?
Kim: Oh my gosh, yes.
Kate: But, you know... you can see the results. You know, like I can't argue with the fact that now all of my spells work, even if it's not how I think they're going to. So yeah, I mean, like even if it feels like that, I think you just have to keep going and believe that the universe will come in for you, and that the magic is there for you, and you can tap into it. And not be so attached to the outcome. Just be... *laughter* That's real.
Kim: That was my face she was laughing at it. My face did something.
Kate: Honest authentic reaction.
Kim: Don't be attached.
Kate: But that's hard. That's very hard in our little human brains. We want things to be exactly how we see them happening. And that is, I think, the downfall of a lot of spells because it's not specific. You are asking for a broad thing. And I think a lot of like, media, will have us believe that spells are very specific, and the outcomes are very specific. But in truth, you're usually going for a larger change in your life. And it's made by, you know, small, almost infinitesimal changes day by day. Yeah, I got really philosophical.
Kim: I like it.
Kate; What were we talking about? Imposter syndrome? So I think just the belief and releasing attachment to outcomes is how I sort of dealt with imposter syndrome when I was first starting out.
Kim: That's one of the best suggestions, or ways to handle it, that I've gotten so far.
Kate: Well. I'm glad, because I don't feel like I'm particularly good at sharing knowledge yet. But that was something when I had, I do like a tarot reading at the beginning of the year with Carly Fisher and Austin who also does virtual readings. So everyone should use her. She's phenomenal.
But one of the things she said was, "You really need to start focusing on sharing knowledge because your journey will help people who feel the way that you felt in the beginning, of being disempowered, being lost, not really understanding what to do where to go, how to do these things." So I try to share as much as I can. Like how out of my depth I felt, both of writing in the writing world, and with magic. You know, these are scary things to start out on. So yeah, like I, I'm still figuring it out. I am by no means an expert, but I think that's a good place to be to talk about this stuff.
Kim: Thinking about writing is terrifying. I don't think... I'm a reader, but I don't think I'm a writer. So thinking about trying to do that, even like a blog? No, thank you.
Kate: I mean, it can be very cathartic.
Kim: Oh, I can do it for myself. Yeah. I was crazy on LiveJournal, look out! But not a blog.
Kate: Yeah, I mean, writing is just one of those things. I feel like one of those human basics that we've... maybe not writing in particular, but storytelling. I think it's one of those human archetypes that's always been around. I think there are, you know, there are warriors, and there are strategists, and there are farmers, and there are naturalists. And then there's storytellers. I think that's an archetype of humanity that anyone can be, but, you know. If it doesn't speak to your heart, then probably not the path for you.
Kim: Hmm. I like collecting stories from other people.
Kate: Yeah, there you go.
Kim: That's why I like this.
Kate: Well, what's a storyteller without someone to listen? You're just a crazy person walking around in the woods.
Kim: *bursts into laughter*
Kate: Glad, you like that one. Which is what I do. Which is what I was doing before I came here.
Kim: Cool. So what would you say is your biggest struggle when it comes to your practice?
Kate: We've sort of touched on it, but you know, releasing that control of what it's going to look like. It's very important. That's like my very biggest struggle. But then also I think I struggle with consistency sometimes. And I found that when I am really consistent about, oh, bath magic, love bath magic. I do that weekly. But there are stretches in time when I didn't do it. And I do feel like you kind of lose the closeness. I feel like it's... compounding, almost.
It's when you're doing magic every day. If you do, even if it's something small, it doesn't have to be, you're doing a giant spell every day. But even if you're just making things in your life magical, like cleaning your house, or cooking, or like making your tea in the morning. That's, that can be a ritual in itself. And I think it gets you in a groove more.
And I struggle with that sometimes if I get really into sort of the masculine energy of trying to sell my book, or trying to set up readings, or signings, or talking to, you know, bookstores and just getting very into sort of the business, and the, I mean, I will call it the human construct of business that we all have to sort of do, being in America. That I lose that more Yin energy of doing the magic every day and going with the flow. So I do struggle with that. I think it, I think that's probably a big challenge for me.
Kim: So... something you just said hit me a lot. I got a bone reading last night. And one of the things that the reader told me was that I would need to work on my relationship with the masculine. And you then said the masculine energy of selling, which it never occurred to me that that would be related to one or the other. What?
Kim: I mean, I tend to think of it as like obviously not all Aries are very masculine heavy, but I feel like it's that Aries energy of like, go out, get stuff, you know, drive, drive yourself into the world kind of energy. Whereas like the feminine energy is more allowing, it's more creative, it's more just sort of like being, I think anyway. And you need both. You have to have both.
Kim: Do you have any long term goals for your practice? Or just...
Kate: I would love to incorporate the holidays more. I was doing that in the very beginning and got away from it. And it's hard, because they are basically every single month. But I would love to be able to flow more with nature, and with sort of the natural progression of the year, and do more practice in those realms. I think it's good to sort of tie yourself to the natural energy like that. And also it does help with what we're talking about, balancing the masculine and feminine energies. Because there are months where you feel more adept at doing that. You feel more motivated. You feel more like "I can do this, I'm going to go out there and get," you know, "Rahhhh!" The masculine energy. It's post-verbal.
But you know, and then there's months where you are supposed to be more allowing, and more... I hate to say I'm allowing because I don't love that connection to feminine energy. But I can't think of a better word. So if you think of one, let me know. But just sort of more in tune with the flow. And like, you know, we're heading into winter. These are times when we can kind of plan, when we can kind of take a step back, we can, you know, prepare for the year ahead. And if you have, it's good to remember because when we're on a Gregorian calendar and we're just in general dealing with capitalism, they want to tell you you have to be on all the time. There's no ebbs and flows, which is just not true. That is just, you know...
Kim: Oh, and you're definitely supposed to be on right now.
Kate: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like there's no break. You work a lot.
Kim: It's the capitalist holiday coming up.
Kate: Yeah. Whereas like, I love YuleI think, you know, we'll probably talk about it a little bit later, but Yule is my favorite holiday. That's like, to me, what you should be celebrating at Christmas, it shouldn't be this capitalistic, like...
Kim: "What did you get?"
Kate: Exactly. Like having to do that, that stress, that like forced gathering, it should be like, we get to be together on the longest night of the year. I don't know if you watched Dr. Who, but my sisters and I always watch the Halfway Through the Dark episode every single year because it's like, we are, you know, on this side of the hemisphere, we are halfway through the dark. It gets better from here. So I think that's a beautiful thing to celebrate, and to celebrate everything that you went through that past year that shaped you. And it shouldn't be this like, "Well, we have very strict guidelines to what Christmas is." You know, it is church. It is these foods. It is this tree decorated this way.
Kim: These colors, even.
Kate; Yeah, exactly. These colors. I hate that. I think it should be more just sort of a celebration of all the things.
Kim: What brings you the most joy in your practice?
Kate: It's going to sound very monk-like, but sitting in gratitude is my favorite part of my day. So I sit in front of my altar and I, you know, give gratitude to each of the deities that I work with and, you know, how individually they are helping me reach my goal. And I love that. You know, gratitude mindset is so important for spell work to me. So I love being able to shift into that feeling of being like, you know, I do actually have a wonderful life, and like these wonderful people all around me.
And you know, just getting to exist in this time. As much negative as there is, there's still so much positive. Like I got to take ibuprofen just now and my pain went away. Like that's a great thing. But yeah, that's a fantastic thing. The fact that like I can speak to you and we are not even remotely in the same vicinity. Like what a great thing. So, and the fact that like you created a place where witches can come and talk, and then people who want to get into witchcraft can listen to that. These are great things to be grateful for, so that is my favorite part of my practice, I think.
Kim: What is your biggest fear in witchcraft?
Kate: The... well, my biggest fear is that Trump will win and then...
Kim: Oh Jesus CHRIST.
Kate: ...they... I know, that... I
Kim: We can't speak that shit into reality.
Kate: And eventually...Okay, well, he who shall not be named. And then like somehow conservative Christians will rule America, and witches will be like hunted down. And because I've been so out about being a witch, then it's like...
Kim: I think about that too.
Kate: Yeah. But like, you know, an actual reality fear is that I do kind of fear the negative energy that you can open yourself up to when you are being so open with your energy. And you know, protecting yourself is so important doing magic, making sure that you, you know, have a circle, that you have words, that you are protecting yourself from the negative energies. I do get afraid of that sometimes. And I know someone whose family seems to be affected by this negative, I guess I'll say entity. Like I think in a shamanic practice, you would call it like an attachment. But that scares me a lot, because I don't really understand that whole world. But I understand that like that is, I'm dabbling in it, you know, like I don't know, like I don't think I really believe in demons. But I do believe in negative energy. And I don't know that I can say for certain that I know what it is or how it manifests. So I do get scared about that sometimes.
Kim: Were you raised in a Christian household?
Kate: I was not.
Kim: Okay.
Kate: Yeah, it was very much just the books sort of raised me. And we had lots of discussions.
Kim: I thought... I've said that before because I don't, because my parents have pretty obvious biases. I don't know if I would say racism, but they have very clear biases that I didn't quite get as much. And I wonder, and I've, I've like wondered aloud if it's because I feel like I was raised by the books.
Kate: Yeah. That's why representation in books is so important. And I mean, I, I'll sing it from the rooftops. Like that's, we have to have that. You have to have any child be able to pick up a book and be exposed to the world in that. It can't just be...
Kim: And themselves in it.
Kate: Yes! 100%. Yeah. Like books show you who you are. Like they provide so many experiences beyond your lived reality. And you know, they teach you about yourself. They teach you what characters you, you want to emulate. Who is, who you don't want to emulate. You know, that, I think they're so important. They're so wonderful. And I mean, stories in general, I think we are moving into a world where probably less people will read and more people will consume something that is visual as well. But to me, that isn't particularly scary because I think that storytelling evolves. You know, and we've had books for a long time. So I think that there will be some new ways to keep telling stories. As much as I love writing, and like I, I want to keep doing that, I think my true directive is stories.
Kim: And audiobooks rape people with ADHD. Cory, I'm thinking of you. Oh, the reason I asked that is because I, I mean, we weren't super religious, but I mean, my grandad was a preacher. And I would go to like Sunday school intermittently. And we didn't have crosses. We didn't have Bibles. My parents didn't mention God. We didn't pray. But I mean, it was like in the background. And The Exorcist and possession movies still freak me out.
Kate: Yeah.
Kim: I don't know if demons is what they are, but that is one of the things that make me nervous.
Kate: Yeah. It is really, it is freaky. I guess to believe, well, that's not true. I was going to say to believe in demons is to believe in like the whole Christian/Catholic rhetoric. But I guess that's not really true, because a lot of cultures have some form of like demons. And you know, I, I guess I think that energy leaves echoes and that truly negative energy can leave that kind of echo that can still affect us. And that's to me, maybe what that is, you know, like what a demon is. Maybe it's a collection of negative energy left behind by someone who was truly evil, or an event that was truly evil. However-
Kim: Do you think it's sentient?
Kate: Hmmm?
Kim: Do you think it's sentient?
Kate: See, I don't know. I don't know about that. I don't know how I think or feel about it. I don't know if I would believe that it is independently sentient and has like a goal in mind. I think it's just that negative energy wants to continue to do what it does. So if that was fear, it wants to invoke fear, it's going to keep doing that in any way that it, you know, or if it's like it wants to hurt things, it's going to keep doing that. Just because that was all it knew, you know. But it's just a weird thing.
Kim: No, but I like this conversation!
Kate: It's such an interesting topic, like, you know.
Kim: Yeah! Hmmm. What is your favorite tool in your practice? And why is it your favorite?
Kate: I love incense. There are so many references to smoke in different cultures, mythologies, and religious practices. And I do believe it's like, I don't know. You look at smoke and it's so cool. It just looks magic to me. So I love using incense, and I love the idea that smoke crosses boundaries, you know, that that can get to the other realm sort of, you know, I think that's really cool. I love it. So I love incense. And I love the scent magic that goes along with it.
Kim: I do that. Not really. I didn't think I did it with incense, but I burn things and say, "Okay, the smoke's taking it to wherever."
Kate: Exactly. That's sort of... in magic it's always like the smoke carries your intention.
Kim: Yeah.
Kate: It also cleanses like that, you know, it clears your area, but you can smoke, to like cure meats. It gets rid of bacteria. So it's weirdly tied to science, also, which I think is really cool.
Kim: My brain just shot off in a different direction between the word cure and meats. I thought, wait, what? Meats, oh, that's horrible. Oh wait, she means like bacon.
Kate: You don't have that Meats disease, the meat's curing. This COVID strain is meat.
Kim: Do you have thoughts and familiar?
Kate: I want a familiar so bad. I have four animals. I don't think any of them are a familiar. The cats are very interested in magic, but I've heard that. I've heard that all cats are kind of like very curious when people are doing magic, which makes a lot of sense. However, I don't know if any of them are helping in any way.
Kim: How do you define a familiar?
Kate: I would think it's an animal that is tied to you energetically, and can kind of help ground you and sense things that you can't sense, but definitely, like, none of my animals I think are, I love them to death, but I don't think any of them are particularly aware of that.
Kim: Yeah, no. Mine are trying to like, not.
Kate: I hope one of the kittens ends up being your familiar. I'm pulling for the black one.
Kim: Ken asked me that yesterday.
Kate: I want the black one to be. Or like the little Siamese one? Sardine? Is that...
Kim: Yes. My little baby.
Kate: That's the best name.
Kim: I did not even think of it, @WitchofColorado on Instagram said it and I was like, oh my God! She named one of her kittens Stuffed Crust. Is that not amazing?
Kate: I love that so much!
Kim: Me too!
Kate: I knew someone who named their cat bagels.
Kim: Plural?
Kate: Yeah.
Kim: That's a, that's a good one!
Kate: Yep. That's the best.
Kim: Wow. I love it so much.
Kate: I really failed at my animal names.
Kim: Well, that's what I thought when she said Stuffed Crust is my latest kitten and I thought, oh my God.
Kate: Sardine is good. That's a good one.
Kim: I love it. And I was like, oh my God. That's it. Oh, she wanted to name one McFlurry, too. And I almost called the black one Sardine and the white one McFlurry, but then my husband- okay so Gecko, the black one. Have you ever heard a Tokay Gecko? No. It makes the sound of a newborn kitten kind of a little "Meh!". And he was the first one we had because the person who found them found them two days apart. And so he was making that little "meh" sound and he was like, he sounds like a little Tokay Gecko. And so that's why his name is Gecko.
Kate: I love that.
KIm: Her name is Sardine because it's hilarious. If you could only recommend one book to a new witch, what would it be and why?
Kate: So my first spell book was Pastel Spells, which... I know. It's so cute though.
Kim: I never even heard of that.
Kate: It's so lovely and the spells are so approachable and easy and fun. So, and they're very like accessible. I feel like my first few spells were real big. They were like with the coven. They were like a road opener, or like a two part, like two-part spells that were just very intense. Pastel Spells is like, here's a spell you can do in your morning coffee. It was very, you know, these are things that...
Kim: Make sense.
Kate: I love it, it's so great! And I feel like if you're intimidated by getting into witchcraft because there's still the stigma that like it's for the woodland witch, you know, who's like rahr! and like me in my...
Kim: Wearing black, and the hat, the cauldron...
Kate: Yeah, I eat babies and all that stuff, which you know, tracks, but like... I was just eating babies this morning.
Kim: Why baby eating though? Always the baby eating.
Kate: Oh, dude. Oh, man. Oh, dude. Oh, I'll get into it. I will get into it because I sat in on my sister's class that was like monster mythology. And it talked about how the creation of monsters, you're creating something that challenges human norms because it crosses boundaries. So it combines two things that shouldn't go together, like a man and a bull, like minotaur. That's a monster. We're very scared because we don't see that. We don't understand it. We don't know how that came to be. We don't know what it's going to do.
So a witch challenges the Archetypal Woman stereotype. Because she does not need a man. She does not like babies. She doesn't want babies, but like, wants to eat the babies. She can like achieve orgasm by herself. She likes to be secluded. Like, that- these are things that you're like, no, but you're a woman. Like you're supposed to be like my mom, you know, like you're supposed to love children and love all this stuff. So what's scarier to someone who wants to see a woman as their mom, than a woman who's like, "Not only do I not give a fuck about babies, but like, I'll eat that baby. That's how much I don't care." You know.
Kim: Your accent and your posture when you said that... I wish people were going to see it because it's perfect. I loved it.
Kate: But that's why, that's why that exists.
Kim: I like everything you just said.
Kate: It's very cool. But for people who are afraid of that stigma, Pastel Spells gets you into spell work without being like super scary, which is, you know.
Kim: That's neat.
Kate: Thank you. So it's Pastel Spells by Rose Orriculum. O R R I...
Kim: Link below. It's linked below.
Kate: I wonder if that's a made up name. It has to be right?
Kim: It does sound like it. But look how cute. But it's going to be, is that it? Oh, it has a little... so cute.
Kate: But it's so accessible. Yes. Love that.
Kim: Would you say that environment shaped your practice? As in like your locale, where you grew up?
Kate: Yes. Yes. 100%. Texas is so full of magic in the land. It's so sad to me because I really struggle with, obviously you can see me. I am a white person. And so me being here in general is sad to me. But I respect and love this land so much. Just the trees and the magic here where I live is close to a site that was like a sacred place for the Tonawa, who were actually okay with white people, historically, as much as I understand it. Like there was trade. There wasn't a whole lot of like suppression going on. They did all get killed out by white people diseases.
So not great. But yes, I think Texas... I mean, this land is so beautiful. And the woods are so magic and powerful. The fireflies. I think this all feeds into the energy of my practice. And then also being so close to Mexico, there was a lot of influence from brujas and curanderas, and I grew up with that. And having that sort of juxtaposed to the European witchcraft that I used to study and get really into, you know, from books and things like that, I love that.
I love that magic. And I love their mythology. I love them using, you know, Orishas, but also working with saints, and having that kind of influence from the Spanish they, you know, create. But then you have Aztec and the Mayan influence as well. It's so cool to me. So yes, being in this area, I think, was such a gift. My first two books that I ever wrote dealt with two, like, some hereditary teenage witches. And I tried to incorporate as much of that culture as I could by speaking with people who ran, there's a place called he Green and White in Austin. It's run by a bruja, and she was so wonderful giving, me as much information as possible. And I read as much as I could. I never want to verge on being appropriative of that, but I have such a deep respect for it, and I think it should be shared, and it should be... not more mainstream, but I wish that more people knew and understood that practice because it's so cool.
Kim: You made me think of a question that I'm going to add.
Kate: Nice. What is it?
Kim: Whose land are you on? At the intro? I want to know that.
Kate: That is such a really good idea.
Kim: Partly because I want people to acknowledge it to themselves.
Kate: Yes. I want to say that's such a wonderful thing to ask people and to make them think about. Because yeah.
Kim: Okay. Now, I believe that we as human beings who are also animals, like nature, have ebbs and flows and hills and valleys. So when you are in a valley, when you are in a magical slump, how do you pull yourself out?
Kate: Consistency is a big one. Just showing up for yourself and saying "I'm going to just be in this space as long as it takes, and continue to do this practice and not think about getting out of it immediately." Because I think that will just make you panic when you feel that you're not out of it. So just showing up and saying like "This is my new norm, I'm going to do this bath magic every single day. I'm going to call in my deities every day. I'm going to light my incense. I'm going to say I'm thankful for their help. I'm going to do my coffee spell. I'm just going to do that as long as it takes. This is my new norm." Would help me get out of a slump like that.
Kim: Do you ever work with other witches?
Kate: I do, I have a coven and I'm so thankful to have them. It used to be larger. It used to be my sisters and then I think four or five other members. It's gotten down to mainly just my sisters now, and a couple other people. But we work together on the full moon, even if it's just something very simple like pulling cards on the full moon. So I do love that. However, I understand that there are solitary witches who enjoy being by themselves and I think that's great too. I don't think you need to have a coven to be able to practice.
Kim: I can't imagine working with others really that often.
Kate: Really?
Kim: Once in a very, like maybe three times a year maybe, I will work with people on other things.
Kate: Yeah. I think I found it really intimidating at first. It was like, this feels very personal to me and I didn't want to... I didn't know how to share it, I guess, which is not what I'm saying happens to you. I think some people are just better at doing it on their own. You know, getting into the mind space and being able to do that. Especially if it comes so naturally to you, you probably do have a bigger connection to the power source, and like some people need to have other people calling it in. And have that collective.
Kim: Would you call yourself a social person in the mundane world?
Kate: Yes and no. I'm a Pisces so I'm always going to be very like "I need my alone time," and I just want to like dream and take baths and all that stuff. However, I do have a Leo rising, so I... I know, isn't it a weird combo? So I do enjoy like... this is super fun for me. I'll do this all day long. And I do enjoy talking to people, I just need to have a lot of reset time in between.
Kim: I don't.
Kate: Yeah.
Kim: This is more than enough socialization for me for the next week.
Kate: I was going to say, so you thought "I'll start a podcast."
Kim: My therapist approves.
Kate: It's important.
Kim: I just... I wonder if non social people can work in covens regularly and feel comfortable with it. I'm curious. If there are any of you out there who do that, email me.
Kate: Well one of my sisters is a solitary witch, and that was she voiced that. She said that it was not feeding her the way that she thought that it should, and that it was distracting to have other people around. That when she was by herself she could feel the connection to her magic more. So I think that's very common. Like I think,you know, it's just as common as all the different kinds of people. So it's not a right or wrong way to do it, I think.
Kim: Oh I don't think it's right or wrong, I'm just interested. If there are non social witches, people who would label themselves a hermit or whatever. But they do enjoy, and regularly work with, covens. Or other other witches. I want to, I'm curious. That's all. Who or what are the three biggest influences on your practice?
Kate: So my sisters... it's going to be like collective people, probably.
Kim: That's fine.
Kate; My sisters are a huge influence on me. Having people keep you accountable to like your own magic and your own thoughts I think is very important, and I owe so much to them when it comes to that. So that would be one. Weirdly, I think Gala Darling and Gabby Bernstein both actually added a lot to my magical practice. Although they are not witches, outwardly anyway, but they do magic things, you know? They are very much in the sort of like, self help industry, but they are about channeling intention through rituals. Sometimes like baths. Sometimes things that verge on spells, and about just communicating with the universe. Like... also very into meditation. So I don't know, I think maybe they are a little bit witchy and they're just like not out of the broom closet.
Kim: That's where the question comes in.
Kate: Yeah. So yeah I like they are very big influences on me, and I think would help a lot of witches who are trying to get better at actual spellcasting and spellwork.
Kim: Do you have a third, or was it those two people as two people?
Kate: Let me think. Last I would probably say my grandmothers, because they were both very witchy without, I think kind of like you said with your family. They were like witchy without being witches, and from a very young age kind of taught me to see and seek out magic. Like one of my grandmothers told me, and I still somewhat believe this, that dragonflies and fireflies are fairies. And so I'll still accidentally call them fairies sometimes. But I mean fireflies are magic! They can't be captured on camera. Like, that's bizarre.
Kim: You have them there?!
Kate: Yeah, oh yeah. So many, so many fireflies.
Kim: I haven't seen them in so long!
Kate: That's why Texas is magic! It's so beautiful and magic. I've been standing in fields of fireflies. It's crazy. Yeah. Gorgeous. So.
Kim: Dangit.
Kate: I know. Come visit! But yeah, so I would say they are probably my third influence teaching me very young to be open to a world that's not just what we see.
Kim: Do you have any advice for anybody just starting out?
Kate: Read as much as you can. I'm very invested in people reading. But, you know, the collective knowledge that you can get from books is irrefutable. So the more that you can read, the more you can figure out what speaks to you. And you know, sometimes I read a spell and I'm like "Yeah, this doesn't vibe with me." And especially in the beginning, doing spells like that ,not connecting with them, made me feel like they weren't working.
So I think reading and exposing yourself, or you know, looking online, you can do that, too. Watching videos, listening to podcasts from different types of witches, and trying to figure out like, what does your unique practice look like? And not needing to base it solely on like, one genre, would be my advice. And just not being afraid to try things, and not being afraid- if they don't work, that it means you are not magical, or you are somehow not worthy of doing the magic.
Kim: That's sad, to think about feeling like that.
Kate: Yeah, but it's very common, I think, starting out. You're like "Well, it didn't work. I guess I'm not a witch, and I'll never try again."
Kim: Try again.
Kate: Yeah make sure you try again. And know that like, the universe knows better than you. So maybe this one thing that you're asking for, it's like not part of your grander timeline, and something better is.
Kim: That's the hard one.
Kate: Yeah, oh yeah. But the only thing that helps with that is time and perspective. Because the more time you get, and the farther away you are from it, the more you're like "Oh yeah, that would have completely derailed my life."
Kim: "Super glad I didn't marry that guy."
Kate: Hopefully, right? Don't do love magic, unless it's not a specific person. Consent!
Kim: Who would you like to see on the show answering these questions?
Kate: Oh I mean we talked a little bit about it before, but I would love to see, you know, people who still practice indigenous magic, wherever that comes from. Whoever is open to sharing it and wouldn't, you know... Obviously I don't want anyone to speak out and receive backlash from their community. If it's not something that needs to be shared, then that's completely fine. Or I'd love to see a bruja on here, and hear some of their tips and tricks, and also just their practice and how they got into it. Because there's usually a big familial tie when it comes to that kind of magic. It's usually generational, and I find that so fascinating. So I would love to see, I would love to see that on here.
Kim: I'm always so envious of people who are like "Oh, yeah, we just, I grew up in it." And I'm like Dangit!
Kate: Oh, I know. I was so blessed to have, it's gonna sound so bougie, but like my nanny, who raised me, she, it's just like that's all she did, like when I was sick she'd just like making me potions, basically. And she would take me to the Green & White, and we would go pick out herbs, and she'd give me stones, and like there's a lot of egg magic. We do a lot with eggs, so. I remember the eggs a lot.
Kim: Dangit!
Kate: Yeah, it was fantastic. And then working with the orishas, like she, I had so many little orishas in my bedroom. Yeah, it was wonderful.
Kim: That's so neat. Is there anything else you wanted to bring up?
Kate: I don't think so. We've covered so much.
Kim: Your book.
Kate: Oh my god. Yeah I did... the whole reason. Yeah. *laughter* so I'm really not good at selling myself, am I? Yeah I, so anyone who is interested in using magic to write a book. That's what I did, and I found it to be hugely helpful, and kind of the only thing that could get me through this very long writer's block slump that I had had. So calling in creative magic, doing bath magic with orange, sweet orange, and like orange bath bombs, using that color magic there, every day tending a creativity candle saying, you know, an incantation to yourself. Saying "I'm creative, I am connected to the source energy. " You know. "I'm full of new ideas." Making a spell for yourself. These are all things that you can do to help you open that creative gateway that I found hugely helpful.
So yeah, I love using magic for those kind of goals. It's always there for you as a support system. So as a creative, I think we we tend to get, if we feel it all cut off from the creativity source, get very sad, and feel very disempowered and kind of hopeless. But magic can get you back there. It can help with that. Like it is, in itself, creativity. So I love that, and I love to help share that information. But yeah I guess I,I have to, do I need to like shamelessly plug myself? Okay. But yeah, so the book that I wrote with magic, the Ptolemy project is actually sci fi, which you wouldn't think those two go together, but magic can be used for anything. So you know, these characters are all just sort of steeped in my magic practice. And yeah, you can you can find that book anywhere that books are sold, and I hope that it opens people up to some sort of magical pathways in their own brain.
Kim: Cool. So at the end I always ask ,or often it's a demand not phrased as a question, but would you please recommend something to the listeners?
Kate: Is it usually like a book,or...
Kim: It can be anything at all. A practice, a food, a book, a smell, a shirt.
Kate: A shirt? Please wear a shirt. I recommend shirt. Hmmm. Honey oat milk latte? If anyone hasn't tried this yet, it is just the stuff of life, and caffeine is great. And also, buy my book. Flawless marketing. But really, please buy my book. It's really hard. It's hard to be a writer. Please buy my book so I can buy coffee.
Kim: Yes. Finally, would you please tell a story that you love to tell? Something that when you are around family the story, comes up because it's something ridiculous or particularly memorable that happened that people like to retell.
Kate: Okay. Tied to magic or just...
Kim: Oh, no. Whatever.
Kate: Okay.
Kim: I mean if it's magical, cool. If it's not I don't care, because it's still going to make me laugh or cry or whatever.
Kate: So I forgot my birthday while talking to Luke and Owen Wilson when I was like 11. Yeah. So, I know. My dad has an antique plane that, I know it's so random that, it's like from World War One. And they used it in a movie here in Texas, and Luke and Owen Wilson were like here shooting this movie. So I went to set with my dad one day and they were talking to me. They were being really really sweet and nice, and they were like "How old are you?" and this is why I don't lie. I like wanted to sound older, so I said like oh I'm almost 12. And it was nowhere near my birthday. It was like nine or ten months away from my birthday. So they were like "Oh, like when's your birthday? and I couldn't think of a date that was close. So I would just panic and said "I don't remember." and they were like "You don't remember your birthday?!" and I was like "We don't celebrate it." And I remember Luke Wilson being like "That's really sad." And then they were like "We're going to go talk to some other people." So that's my like, you know. The story I decided to share on this day for whatever reason. Don't try to lie to Luke and Owen Wilson. You don't need to be 12.
Kim: Oh my gosh that's amazing.
Kate: Relatable content. If, for anyone, when this comes up for them, don't lie to Luke and Owen Wilson.
Kim: Thank you so much for being on the show. And for being so patient! Y'all, you don't even know. I think this is like our fourth or fifth attempt to record this because a variety of dumb things happened beforehand.
Kim: Listen,divine timing. It was meant to happen now and I'm so happy I got to talk to you, and it was it was just, it was perfect timing.
Kim: Me too! Good. Well then I will see you around on the internet. Bye.
Kate: Bye!
Kim: Thanks again to Kate for being on the show. Here's a sneak peek of January's podcast bonus over on Patreon where I give my thoughts on whether or not practicing witchcraft is a choice.
Kate: *fade in* Yeah, maybe it's not. Maybe it's not a choice. Maybe it's just, you know. You're going to bear the mark for the rest of your life.
Kim: I feel like it's like being gay, or your like, sexual attraction. I just feel like that's something innate and you don't really have a choice about it, it's just what is.
Kate: That's such a good comparison.
Kim: You can choose to act on it. But like if you're Christian you can say "I'm not gay" because you don't act on it, but you do still have that preference.
Kate: Yeah, and I feel like you're kind of right in that you, that I feel like we all kind of saw something that got us into witchcraft, and immediately we were like "That's what I want. I want to do this." Or like, you know, it was just like a very innate pull that other people don't answer. Because other people, we all have the same experience, right? like we're all on the same planet. *fade out*
Kim: Hear the whole conversation by joining me over at patreon.com/cleverkimscurios. Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of Your Average Witch. You can find us all around the internet, on Instagram @youraveragewitchpodcast, Facebook at facebook.com/youraveragewitchpodcast, at youraveragewitch.com, and at your favorite podcast service. Want to help the podcast grow? Leave a review. You can review us on Amazon and Apple podcasts, and now you can rate us on Spotify. You just might hear your review read at the end of the next episode. To rate Your Average Witch on Spotify, click the home key. Click on Your Average Witch Podcast, and then leave a rating. You can also support the show by going to patreon.com/cleverkimscurios. If you'd like to recommend someone for the podcast, like to be on it yourself, or if you'd like to advertise on the podcast, send an email to youraveragewitch podcast at gmail.com. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you when the moon changes.