This week I talk to Laura Tempest Zakroff, author, dancer, and artist. Laura talks about how the woods turns you witchy, working with other witches, and how mundane work can lift you out of a magical slump.
As a reminder, ticket sales for Anahata's Purpose are open now! You've heard the interviews, heard me talk about how it changed my life- now it's your turn. Visit anahataspurpose.com and get your ticket today!
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This week's sponsor: The Awakening Collective
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Laura Tempest Zakroff.
Author of Sigil Witchery, creator of The Anatomy of a Witch deck, dancer, artist, and more!
Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where every Tuesday we talk about witch life, witch stories, and sometimes a little witchcraft. Before we get started, I want to remind you that ticket sales for Anahata's Purpose are open now. You've heard the interviews, heard me talk about how it changed my life, now it's your turn. Visit AnahatasPurpose.com and get your ticket today. This week I talked to Laura Tempest Zakroff, author, dancer, and artist. Laura talks about how woods turn you witchy, working with other witches, and how mundane work can lift you out of a magical slump. But first let's hear from this week's sponsor, The Awakening Collective. Tired of getting mediocre ritual supplies at high prices? The Awakening Collective is an indigenous owned business that has a variety of tools for your witchy needs including crystals, herbs, ritual oils, waters, candles, tarot, altar decor, and more. New items added weekly. Use code WITCHY for 10% off at theawakeningcollective.com. Now let's get to the stories!
Kim: Hello Tempest, welcome to the show.
Tempest: Hello, how are you doing?
Kim: I am chilly because it's below 70 here and I don't like it. How are you?
Tempest: I won't mention what temperature it is in Rhode Island. It's a lot less than that.
Kim: I can't even imagine. Would you please introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and what you do and where they can find you?
Tempest: Sure, I'm Laura Tempest Zakrov, also known as LTZ or Tempest. I am an artist, an author, a modern traditional witch, as well as a performer. I'm based in New England. My pronouns are she, they. And I also run Owlkeyme Arts, which is my shop online where you can find my art, and I teach where you can find my art and I teach classes and workshops, and a little bit of everything.
Kim: That is awesome. And I know you from a million years ago, to me anyway, from when you used to belly dance and do all those cool corset belts and everything. Those were so cool.
Tempest: It has really, it's been a hot minute. Like somebody just the other day brought up like, "Do you remember the Gothic belly dance DVD?" I was like, yes, yes I do. So it's like, it's been a couple decades.
Kim: I know, that's real weird.
Tempest: What is time? I don't know. *laughs*
Kim: I don't know how it works. It's baffling. Anything with numbers just is beyond me. Now what does it mean to you when you call yourself a witch?
Tempest: To be a witch is to connect to the seen and unseen. To recognize our interconnectivity with the world around us, as well as our own sovereign power. That's my nutshell.
Kim: That is very elevator pitchy. That is so much shorter than how I'd ramble.
Tempest: *laughs* It's taken a long time to get it down to that. Otherwise, I could also ramble on for three hours.
Kim: Do you have any family history with witchcraft? Like do you, most of the people I talk, well, honestly, most of the people I talk to were raised Baptist, but do you have any family history with it?
Tempest: I come from a mixed background in that my father is Russian/Slavic Baltic Jew. And then my mother is a Sicilian Italian mix Roman Catholic. And so at the time that they got together, that was pretty revolutionary. So I grew up in a rather unorthodox household where, you know, art and history and religious beliefs were kind of all in this strange mix of things where, you know, I come home crying from school because, you know, I went to Catholic school, of course. And they're like, "They said Dad's going to hell!" And my mom's like, "Oh, we really actually don't believe in hell." *laughs*
Kim: Well that's good, that's refreshing.
Tempest: Yeah. So, you know, on some things, my mom's still a stickler around on different kinds of doctrine, but at the same time, she ended up teaching world religions in Catholic school herself later on. So, it allowed for a lot of opportunities and growth. And my grandfather, my mother's father, often took me out into nature, and we went on walks and kind of explored things. I think that gave me a really interesting perspective to the natural world, and just kind of seeing that it's present whether you're in the city or you're out in the woods. So that kind of not uber-judgmental background and that, you know, exposure out to the woods and also being, even though I have two older brothers, I am seven and nine years younger. And so I also kind of was an only child in that respect. I also kind of was an only child in that respect. So I spent a lot of time by myself playing. You know, playing with sticks and seeds and bugs and everything I could find in the backyard. So surprise, here I am.
Kim: I wonder if everybody who wanders around in the woods by themselves gets a little bit witchy.
Tempest: I think you kind of have to. You just can't be out in the woods without, you know, that much, without sensing the presence of something beyond yourself there, and watching the animals and seeing like just life and death all in its cycle around you. I just don't know how you can't see it.
Kim: Do you have any consistent practices? Sometimes I say daily, but not everybody does. I don't even do everything daily. Do you have any consistent practices that you'll share with us?
Tempest: So you know, I'm actually not scared of the daily concept because I have a pretty low bar for ritual. I think the things that we do on a daily basis to take care of our bodily needs and mental needs and functions, such as, you know, taking a bath and getting dressed in the morning, all of that can be seen as connecting to to ourselves and to the universe around us. But in a larger, more like overtly witchy kind of thing, it's me, I would say my art is one of the biggest regular practices because it's communing with spirits and deities and visions and such. And so I kind of feel like that's sort of my going to church or temple, if you will, kind of regular thing that I need to do. More so than anything that people are like, well, you need to do the Sabbath or this moon thing or that kind of thing. It's that's that's where the magic happens is in the art studio.
Kim: It never really occurred to me until you just said that, but I didn't really come into my practice until I was regularly in the studio myself. Holy crap. I get so many epiphanies during this show.
Tempest: *laughs* Epiphany number one, here we go.
Kim: What would you say is the biggest motivator in your practice?
Tempest: Hmmm. What motivates us? What do I keep going every day? I think curiosity and inspiration. There's curiosity and inspiration, you know, there's always something full of wonder to explore, whether it's, you know, outside my window and like what the birds and the squirrels and the plants are up to. Or, you know, as a teacher, I love folks uncovering their own past and discovering new things and just seeing, you know, people being further inspired and kind of developing on their own has always been something that's just so amazing. So it's, you know, it's never one particular thing. It tends to change from day to day, which is good because as a Gemini, I'm like, you know, "Squirrel! Oh, shiny things!" You know. So that kind of moves around, but it's both internal and external.
Kim: I think nosiness might be mine, (Tempest laughs) but you can call that curiosity in a more pleasant way.
Tempest: You know, I really, every time I teach a workshop on magic and I kind of remind people that the really psychic ability is like 80 to 90% observation. So nosy would definitely work well into that.
Kim: *laughs* Let's talk about imposter syndrome. Do you feel like you have that? And if you do, how do you keep it from preventing you from doing things?
Tempest: I would say that happens depending on what the lunar schedule is doing. The times where I doubt what I'm doing, and where I am in the world the most is either right before the new moon, or doubly so if that coordinates with a certain part of my cycle. You're just like "Oh wait, lemme look at the calendar. Oh, that's why I feel like shit." Because otherwise, you know the rest of the month everything's fine. So what I do with it is I tend to divert my attention. It's like, okay, well, I'm really being hard on myself about my writing, or my art, or something else like that. Let me focus on what's the mundane things around me that I can have a handle on that I can immediately see a change in my environment. Which is, you know, it could be cleaning the bathroom. It can be tidying up a corner. It can be go out and take care of shopping. You know, something where I'm just doing a process and working through it that even takes my mind off, like what's not working. And I always find that within a day after that, I've already found a new idea or a new concept. And like, "Why did I do this? Why do we do this?" Well, that's just what the head monkeys do. That's the best way to beat it for me.
Kim: Did you say the head monkeys?
Tempest: The head monkeys.
Kim: I enjoy that. monkeys?
Tempest: You know the head monkeys; it's your own personal circus that you didn't subscribe to but they're there anyway.
Kim: And you can't say that old "It's not my circus, not my monkeys," because they are. How great.
Tempest: They are. Damn it. What would you say is your biggest struggle when it comes to when it comes to witchcraft?
Tempest: Hmm. So where does it come to that? Is it the people outside the door, or the people inside the door?
Kim: Oh my gosh.
Tempest: Right? Because, you know, it's different situations. Like, I feel I have gotten to a point now doing this for as long as I have doing this for for as long as I have that I've become really comfortable and intuitive in my practice. I'm really confident in knowing what I'm doing, but it gives me a lot of distress to see people, you know, bashing things they don't understand, or saying "This is the only way to do it," or "You're doing it wrong," and the impact that has on other people, like really breaks my that like really breaks my heart. When people are like, "Oh, I guess I can't do this thing because so-and-so on some TikTok said I can't do this thing." It's like, but you can, you know? Like, why do we have this? You know? Don't go out and smack everybody, which isn't nice. You know, at least I wouldn't. I wouldn't do that. But I really try to go the other way. I really try to go the other way and going okay well instead of trying to combat that head-on "What else can I do to help guide people that presents a positive solution?" But at the same time I'm also very snarky, so I actually have a moment or two where I'm like, oh, you know, "Fuck this shit."
Kim: Good! I'm a fan of snark.
Tempest: It's like a little hashtag of spitewitch. It's just like sometimes you just, you know, that's why when people say you should ignore reviews, you know, like, some of the most amazing reviews I've gotten are like the worst reviews ever, like, the person who thought Sigil Witchery was haunted, like their copy was haunted, you know, so I made a video.
Kim: What?
Tempest: Yeah, I'm just like, this is amazing, like, this is so terrible, it's fantastic. Like, this is so terrible. It's fantastic. And, you know, the dude who thought that "The Gorgon's Guide to Magical Resistance was the most woke magic ever." I'm like, that's great. That's really high praise. Thank you.
Kim: Yeah, I mean if somebody said that to me, I'd be like, hell yeah.
Tempest: It's like, great. And what's funny is like everybody's kicked on to sort of become this three wolf moon type of review system. Where everybody else now who has put a review, they're where everybody else now who has put a review, they're like, it's five stars and it says "The most woke magic ever." I'm like, I love all of you. This is great.
Kim: What would you say brings the most joy in your practice?
Tempest: Oh gosh, so many things! I think I always find something, a little each day. Like the smell of incense, like the simplest little thing where you just smell it and it changes that to where having an impromptu full moon ritual with a couple of friends and we're just like, hey, we're just sitting here, let's do a thing. And like that ritual that happens in just a few minutes, without any sort of planning, and everybody feels it. So I take a lot of joy. So I love being Like I love being present in my practice. So it's those little tactile, sensational moments of just enjoying the simplicity. Yeah, I guess it's enjoying the simplicity, whether it's just the incense or that amazing improv ritual that just happens. So just being able to do a thing and rely on your experience, and trusting on whoever you're working with to let that happen.
Kim: That made my heart like swell up a little bit. In a good way.
Tempest: "And that day it grew three sizes."
Kim: Yeah. I like it. I'm warmer suddenly. *laughs*
Tempest: Aw, the warm fuzzies are here!
Kim: What would you say is your biggest fear in witchcraft? Do you have any?
Tempest: I don't have any fears about my practice. As someone who produces events, I run the Witches' Night Out Market, and do other kinds of regular events and festivals. This particular social and cultural environment that we live in, we are going into kind of another Satanic Panic. And so, not, you know, I don't have any fears of being out in public as a witch. I mean, that's been going on since the 90s. So, you know, in some ways it's gotten a lot better. But also, you know, worrying that if you're doing a public gathering in some space and some, you know, unhinged person decides that they're going to cause trouble. Like luckily, knock on wood, we've been really lucky. We've had some kind of encounters with the local church. But that's the thing is, you know, especially when you've got some, you know, pastor who's like, "We have spiritual warfare going on here..." Like don't use those terms. You know, you don't know who amongst your flock has decided that spiritual warfare requires picking up a gun.
Kim: Exactly.
Tempest: And bringing it to a peaceful nature observing event. So it's kind of, I guess it's witchcraft related, but it's more of other people's fears of witchcraft imposing upon that. And so that's definitely a concern that I have.
Kim: I hate it. I hate it a lot.
Tempest: Yeah, me too.
Kim: What is something you did early on in your practice that you don't do anymore? And why don't you do it?
Tempest: Hmm. You know, this probably goes for all things. It goes for dance as well. I used to worry about what other people thought.
Kim: Oh, yeah.
Tempest: Yeah, and I think that was something that really impacted how well I could perform in the early years, because it was so like "Everything is the biggest moment ever, at this festival, at this moment, and who's in the audience? And if they see it it could mean like..." all that shit, that means nothing. It really doesn't mean anything in the sense that, you know, there's no make or break moment. There are always opportunities. And not everybody's paying attention the way that you're so hyper-focused on it. So in terms of designing and creating ritual for other folks or involving people, I just trust in the moment now. And so, now I don't, I don't worry about it. I might still have a little moment of, that's not to say I'm like, my ritual is going to be great. I always have a little bit of, you know, anxiety of like, "I hope this goes well. I hope nobody catches on fire."
Kim: A valid worry!
Tempest: Yeah. "May it be safe." You know, there's always like the mom concern that happens. But in earlier days, you know, where it was definitely just more conscious of a false perception of what other people's things are. And of course now you see on the internet, you know. People are happy to place their opinions on things, but that doesn't mean it matters, so. Yes, I have less less fucks to give and life is happier for it.
Kim: It's one of my favorite things about aging. I mean, I don't love aging because I got a new hip now, but I so don't care about so many things. *laughs*
Tempest: *laughs* That's the trade-off and I think I'll take it.
Kim: What is your favorite tool in your practice and why? It does not have to be a physical object.
Tempest: Well, because I wrote The Witch's Cauldron. My default one tends to be, "My favorite tool is a cauldron." But the specific kind of cauldron that I tend to envision is more like my bathtub.
Kim: Oh!
Tempest: Yes, because it's typically a giant cauldron. You know, it holds hot water. It's a place where things can be stirred. It can be a place where things are cleansed. And, you know, a bath can be a really truly, an invigorating as well as a relaxing and an inspiring experience. I mean, there's so much magic that can happen with that. So, whether you're like, "I got to magic my way into this and I'm going to, you know, use special thoughts and I'm going to put candles and set music in the bathroom," or if you're just going to be like, "I need to clean my body." It all still works. There's just something about submerging your body in water that does it. And if it, you know, second would be a shower. But there's just that submerging part that's really nice. So, yeah, we go into the bathtub, and then probably the next one would be like kind of the crock pot because I really like physical, practical things that, you know. Making food and sharing food is awesome.
Kim: Yeah, I love it. It's fave. Yes. I am so envious of people who are like, "Oh, I just took a spiritual bath," because I can't get it in out of my bathtub because my stupid hip. But man, when it heals all the way! *laughs*
Tempest: Oh, it's on! It is on!
Kim: I'm gonna live in a tub for two days.
Tempest: Make sure you get one of those little, you know, little trays that goes over the bathtub, and there's an extra cushion you like.
Kim: Yes. and the books, and snacks. Yes.
Tempest: It'll be wonderful.
Kim: If you could only recommend one book to a new witch, what would it be and why?
Tempest: Hmmm. Have they already read a few books? (both laugh) So, what is, I want to know they've already read. You know, because, it's true, right? Could be this is the counter thing. "Oh, you've read that, now read this." *laughs* So, one of the things I've said for a really long time, and it's really particular to North American practice, particularly, is I found Drawing Down the Moon by Margot Adler an eye-opening experience because she went into such depth about a variety of different traditions that are all very influential on modern paganism and witchcraft. And being able to see that all these different kinds of people, even if I didn't agree with what they believed in or how they did it, I suddenly had a better understanding of what the larger magical community was like. Warts and all. And but unfortunately, you know, she passed away in 2014. So that book, you know, is now almost 10 years out of date as well from the last update, which might have even been like 2006. But like as a historical reference, I think it's something that a lot of folks should be able to read, you know, at least in the United States, so you have an idea of like, 'What happened and why are we here? Who are these people? And why some of them you should stay away from them?" *laughs* "And who's cool?" But on the other side of like more of the how to, so I'm going to do the shameless promotion thing ...
Kim: I was going to suggest that you do it if you didn't. I was going to say, "What about your own?"
Tempest: I know. So like there's the history. And then I wrote Weave the Liminal to kind of be the book I wish I had, you know, over 20-some years ago, that cut through all the crap that was on the market then, and all the struggles you had to go through. Like, "This is what we're supposed to be doing," but it doesn't tell us why. So, for those folks who have done some reading, I'd recommend Weave the Liminal. We're also reaching an interesting part in history and practice where there are so many options available to new witches, that they might skip all of that stuff we dealt with in the 90s and the early 00s completely. So it's like, "You're probably not even going to see half this crap. That's great. That's exciting." So for something like that, probably leaning more towards Anatomy of a Witch, which is more about connecting you to your body, you know, and it doesn't have to deal with so much with the baggage that we often have to, you know, acknowledge and sift through from other ideas that we find in other books.
Kim: One of my friends is reading that now and she keeps exclaiming about it and pointing out little parts.
Tempest: Yay!
Kim: I think like just two days ago she was like, "Look, this is this and this and this!" It was fun.
Tempst: It's one of those, it's kind of an advanced book in some ways, and so like, but it's accessible for people who are new. And I love that, you know, a book that you can come back to multiple times and discover something new every time you read it, because you've learned something else in your life and you've experienced it, and you're like, "Holy shit, like what, did they change this book on me? Because this was totally not there, you know, three years ago when I first read it!"it's like, oh, it was there, it's been there, but you're now there. Like, that's so exciting. That's the thing I just love about learning and practicing.
Kim: Now, you've moved around a lot.
Tempest: Yep.
Kim: Around the country. Would you say that the different places you've lived affect your practice?
Tempest: Absolutely. That is, environment is such a major influence on our practice, as well as our bodies. I think, you know, like back in the 90s, the popular thing was like, "Witchcraft plus some culture," right? You know, Italian witchcraft and Scottish witchcraft and Irish witchcraft and whatever, you know, plus Wicca was out there. And, you know, that was really great for people who wanted to call back to their roots. But if you've never been to those places, and here you are living in Arizona or California or Iowa or Alabama, all of these places are so different. The landscape is different. The spirits themselves that are there, the history is different. So you have so much to work with, wherever that you're living.
Like I really encourage folks to connect with where they are, even if they're like, well, "I'm an Irish witch living in, you know, Connecticut." Like, okay, well, but still connect to what's happening in Connecticut. Because not only are these different levels and tides and spirits in play, but that's also the air you're breathing, it's the water you're drinking, it's the food that you're eating, all of that is becoming a part of you as well as you are a part of it. And that's where your practice should start. It's immediately where you're standing, and then you can go out from there. So it definitely, you know... the seasons affect it. Whether you're by the ocean or you're stuck in the middle of the country with, you know, a river, or nothing, in the desert, all of those things are going to change how you practice, whether you're going to go out at night in the middle of winter or not.
Kim: Oh, no.
Tempest: Do you want to go out in the middle of the night? I'm like, it's okay, I'll stay in, it's cold.
Kim: That's when you investigate that cauldron.
Tempest: Right, right, that's like, it's cold as a witch's tit. Well, I'd like to keep mine warm. (Kim laughs) Right, right?That's what I guess is cold as a witch's tit. Well, I'd like to keep mine warm. Thank you very much.
Kim: Now, most of us, I'm not going to say all because I don't know everybody's life, but most of us have ups and downs in life and in our practice. How do you pull yourself out of a magical slump?
Tempest: Does my first marriage count?
Kim: Mine did.
*both laugh*
Tempest: Yeah, it was a good period of 15 years of that. And so therefore, the idea would be "Divorce and move and drastic change," but that's not accessible for everybody and probably not the kind of same way. So, in a more effectual for everybody, applicable, applicable for everybody type of way is, you know, referring back to what we just talked about your environment, is: Go outside. Not necessarily in the cold winter, but to, even then, you know, just for a few moments. Well, dressed is good. To smell the air and check out with, you know, what's the ground feel like underneath you and what are the animals are doing? What are the, what are the clouds like? Like, what is your sense of being? And simply connecting to that, and seeing if there's anything that you can do in your outside space, or your interior space, to change things up. You know, I mentioned cleaning earlier, but you can also like, when's the last time you cleaned your altar? *Laughs* You know, and shifted things up. Oh, that's the other thing. The workbook on the witch's altar. I know how many of you all have dusty altars out there. *laughs* We all do, right? But it's amazing. If you just go and shift around your magical space a little bit, or go outside and make an offering to the land spirits, that things sort of kick up and you're able to change your perspective. *pauses* Otherwise, get a divorce. *both laugh*
Kim: Or do like I did and join the Army! Don't do that. Don't do that.
Tempest: Where you can see the world! *laughs*
Kim: Unless you really want to. I mean... you'll need a hip replacement when you're 50. Don't do that. *laughs* Do you ever work with other witches? I know you do, but can you tell us how?
Tempest: Yes. So, at this current point in my life, I'm running a group with two other folks called Key and Serpent, which is a kind of a collective of modern traditional witches. We're doing a thing where we alternate between doing lectures and rituals, so that folks have a different way of building their practice and seeing other ways of doing things. And then on a more personal scale with some of those folks and other people I know, we just kind of impromptu gatherings. And then when I go to events, you know, like bigger pang of events like Paganacon, or Mystic South, or any of the other kinds of things like that. I'm often, you know, pairing up or partnering up with other folks.
So, we have a kind of a running joke of the Super Coven. *laughs* Which is people from different traditions, but when you run into them, you're just like, "You're awesome!" "Well, you're awesome. Let's go do this crazy idea!" "Okay, we have nothing that we planned!" "That's alright, we'll go do it!" And then it comes out rather spectacularly. So there's that kind of once in, you know, once when the stars align kind of moment that I also really enjoy doing, too. So it could be these little tiny casual moments, or this kind of big "Oh my god, now we're doing a ritual for 300 people."
Kim: Holy crap.
Tempest: *laughs* It happens.
Kim: I actually got to experience that, over the past two years. Because I go to this, listeners know, it's called Anahata's Purpose. But it was cool. I never got to, I had, have never worked with other witches before, like in person. So, it was really neat. It felt very different.
Tempest: Oh, yes. Yeah. You, especially there are people who you just feel really comfortable with and like-minded. Like, even if you're just have very different ways of practicing, being able to work magic together can be just truly amazing. Which is not to say, at the same time, like everybody go out and join a coven. I don't believe witches naturally occur well in covens, and hierarchies. *laughs* That just doesn't really sit well. Been there, tried that.
Kim: I'm a very much "Don't tell me what to do person."
Tempest: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think it's, I think it was Terry Pratchett that said like "Three or more witches is called an argument." (Kim laughs boisterously) Yes. Yeah. And he knew, he definitely knew. So, but, you know, having kind of a democratic gathering of like-minded folks that you just, you convene every once in a while to just get together and express, and share, and shoot the shit, and all that kind of stuff. And light things on fire. It's just, there's nothing quite like it.
Kim: I do like lighting things on fire. *laughs*
Tempest: *laughs* Surprise! I tell folks, "I know you're all pyromaniacs." You know, people, when I'm talk about sigils, like "You don't have to light them on fire." They're like, "We like that part!" I'm like, "You can totally do that! But you don't have to." So, light things on fire safely though.
Kim: I am actually having a little gathering of witches in the next couple weeks because a bunch of people come for the Tucson Gem Show, and so I'm having a little witchy bonfire on one of the weekends. I'm excited.
Tempest: Excellent.
Kim: We're going to burn stuff.
Tempest: Yay. We're going to burn stuff. Yay. I got to get out there one of these years. I started to see everybody going, like, "We're heading to Tucson!" I'm like, that's it. Forget what happens at this time of year. And it's such a great time to go to Tucson, because it's beautiful.
Kim: Yeah. And it's... I mean, I'm cold, but you wouldn't be.
Tempest: No, I'll be running around with just like tank top on and like throwing... Yeah, we used to do an event that happened at Old Tucson in March. You know, when we were living in Seattle, we head out there in early March. And I just feel like for the first couple days, I was just drying out. You know, like...
Kim: Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Tempest: You know, but then by the end, I was like, I'm a little too dry now. I kind of feel like a frog that's been left out of the pond for a while. But definitely I'm like, ooh, it's 70, 70 degrees. That's beautiful. I'm dry and sunny and all the saguaros. I'm definitely a slut for saguaros. So.
Kim: Me too. And I'm, one of the reasons I like this place, this property, is because we have one.
Tempest: Oh, yay!
Kim: It's very old and some of its arms fell off, but it's got little baby arms growing.
Tempest: Oh, it's got little nubbins? I love the little nubbins! *laughs* Yeah, I think at some point, I keep telling Nathan, like, I think, you know, if Arizona is still, you know, on the planet in the next few years. *laughs* I think I'm going to need to do like an artist retreat for a few weeks every year. He's not so much a desert person, but I always went out to Arizona to visit my great aunt. So it's been part of me for a very, very long time. And I especially feel it when New England winter, maybe now that we're in Rhode Island, like, hmm.
Kim: Oh my gosh, yes.
Tempest: It's going to be a while before I see anything green. If I'm not going to see anything green, it might as well be warm.
Kim: Exactly. Who would you, who or what would you say are the three biggest influences on your practice?
Tempest: Hmmm. Let's see, Doreen Valiente. Definitely biggest one right out, right out of the hat. Her Witchcraft For Tomorrow was probably one of the better, if not best books I read that made sense to me. And I've always appreciated her as sort of a litmus test of who was an asshole in developing witchcraft. So if Doreen thought somebody was a jerk or an asshole, they probably were. So I can, I appreciate that. I appreciate she was sort of very no-nonsense, but yet Britishly polite about it. Other two influences...
So not quite exactly magical, but someone who's been a very big inspiration to me is Nick Bantock, who is the author of An Artist of Griffin and Sabine. And I talk about it in Visual Alchemy. And he also wrote, he wrote the foreword! This is me being like, "Ahhh!" it's my 12-year-old me, squeeing. And I actually got to meet him back in October. And that was just amazing because you just never know, you know, when you're going to meet people that you've like long idolized. And it was pretty awesome. And so that has been something that's really influenced my art, as well as how I see the world around me.
And number three, oh gosh, so many good choices. Who, who, who? I'm going to throw a random one in there. And it's going to be... How about Charles de Lint? And this is where we're going into fiction as an influence, because one of the, I've read most of his work, but one of his earlier works was Memory and Dream, which is about someone whose art, like what they dream and they create through paintings, actually comes into reality. And that's something that influenced me as a teenager and still today, realizing like this wonderful interplay between what we dream, and what we envision, and what we create with magic, and what we bring into this world is pretty profound, and still... he's also an amazing person and wonderful continual prolific author. So that would be my three for the moment. Give me a drink and I'll tell you somebody else probably later. *laughs*
Kim: I love it, I love it, that it... Well, we're a different person every second, so.
Tempest: True.
Kim: That makes sense. Do you have advice for any new witches?
Tempest: The hardest thing, but the most powerful thing that you can do, is to learn to trust your intuition. You know, it sounds like it's an easy thing, like, "Oh yeah, just trust your gut." But we have every aspect of society telling us that magic doesn't exist, and all of the stuff you do is just crazy, and you know, all the other sort of nonsense. And that kind of influence from all different people and corners of the world, where the thing that we really need the most is to listen to our bodies and listen to the world around us and to trust ourselves, because that's where the power comes from. And, you know, always think about it as you never benefit if you give your power away. You're not the one who benefits in that equation. So unless it's something that you are choosing to do, make sure that you are consciously accepting your sovereignty and listening to yourself and learning to really trust yourself. to yourself and learning to really trust yourself.
Kim: That just made me get so excited.
Tempest: Yay!
Kim: Because yeah, yeah! *both laugh*
Kim: Who do you think you'd enjoy hearing answering these questions? Who do you think I should invite on the show?
Tempest: Have you had Phoenix Lafay yet?
Kim: No.
Tempest: Phoenix Lafay, actually if you want to go for a double header, you can do Phoenix and her partner, Gwion, Gwion Phoenix, Gwion Raven, oh my gosh, words are hard. They are delightful, really fantastic witches, and both have written books together and separately that I think provide a well-needed perspective in this community.
Kim: Love it. I will put them on the list. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about that I didn't ask, or anything you wanted to ask me?
Tempest: No, I mean we're getting into this interesting place where things are kind of opening back up again in a new level. It's like, it's like an onion. It's like an onion. It's like an onion, or a lotus. Lotus sounds prettier, *laughs* but it feels more like an onion. So things are coming up. I'm kind of not wanting to run out into the world, *laughs* like full tilt, as much as I love seeing people and traveling and teaching. So I've kept it to just doing one big thing a month coming up. So Paganicon in March in Minneapolis, and Between the Worlds/Sacred Space in April, and so forth. So I would love to see people at those events. What I would say to people who might encounter me at those events is to realize that if I'm vending, things are usually very chaotic. *laughs* But I also have a little bit of a audio processing delay. So sometimes I just really need to hear something clearly. And, you know, especially in person, this is, I'm usually picking up a lot of stuff. So I will warn them that I can be awkward as fuck in person. *laughs* But charming!
Kim: Uh, you know what? In person is like a whole different planet. So... yes.
Tempest: Yeah, and I think folks kind of expect like, "Oh, you know, I hear you, I see you on the videos. It's going to be like that in person." I'm like, if I am being barraged by like 20 different people at my booth and I've been there for eight hours... *laughs*
Kim: Plus the'res lights and smells and sounds and things that are not in your studio.
Tempest: Yeah, that's like, I just, I get, I'm definitely an introvert. I can be an extroverted type person when I'm teaching, you know, stepping into...
Kim: Yeah but that's your teacher costume.
Tempest: Yeah, that's exactly, it's my teacher costume, my performer costume. I can go out there on stage. This is my designated space. I know what my sacred space is. And then everything else... It's just it's a safe to say it's a shitshow, but I try. But I'm also the kind of person if I like say something to somebody I don't even know, like six hours later be like, "Did I say the wrong thing?"
Kim: I relate. I relate to that really hard.
Tempest: Yeah, yeah. Neurodivergent fun. Yay!
Kim: Good times. Love it. But at least we can talk about it now.
Tempest: Yes. Yes, it's good. And I think more people kind of realizing. I think that's one of the few things that the pandemic was oddly very good for, is the amount of people who got ADHD and other types of diagnoses, and kind of recognizing that. Because like when you're, you know, you're just struggling in the world and you're just immersed constantly in it, you're not thinking about it. You're just you're just doing it, you're just figuring out. And if we're, like my partner finally getting ADHD diagnosis, and like treatment, is like, "Oh." Because you know, you don't have a schedule of things that are going to happen, that you don't have a specific purpose. If you don't have your hyper focus, it really changes how you're perceiving and acting with the world and how you see yourself. And so I think that's been kind of a bit of a mixed blessing. So people really understand that like, hey, you know, there's more than just neurotypical out there. There's a lot of weird people out there. You're awesome. Yeah, awkward but awesome.
Kim: Yeah, we're great. So to the two questions that I don't tell people what they are up front, other than those weird Patreon questions. The first one is actually a request, can you please recommend something, anything at all, to the listeners?
Tempest: Hmmm. Person, place, or thing?
Kim: Yep, whatever. Song, whatever. Flavor.
Tempest: I mentioned about like incense, people are like, "What kind of incense would give you that response that's that awesome?" Well, so my friends at The Veiled Crow, which is based here in Rhode Island, make this kind of incense that you don't need... It's loose incense, but you don't need to burn it on a charcoal. You can just put a little bit in a dish and light it and then blow it out. It is amazing, particularly Good Earth. It's one of my favorites, but there's like a bunch of amazing different scents and it lasts a long time. And it's like, it's perfect for those situations where you don't want to have incense burning like a really long time. But if you did want to have a ritual where you have your little charcoal going, if you can get the damn thing to start, you could, you could just, you know, keep adding it to the charcoal. But when you want something like in the beginning or at a high moment or at the ending, or at a high moment or at the ending, it's just perfect and it just smells fantastic. Without being super overpowering. It doesn't cause me to sneeze. Most incenses cause me to have an allergic reaction. So folks can check that out like on their... They have a website, they have the internets. So people can check that out in there too. I highly I highly recommend it if you like really good incense, but you don't want something that's going to make you sneeze.
Kim: That is cool. Thank you very much. The final thing is, will you tell me a story? Something that you would tell around a campfire or at a family reunion or at a barbecue in the backyard. If there's... tell me a gathering story.
Tempest: Okay, um, I will tell you, I will tell you a story. I'll tell you a story of, what I say is witchlet Tempest, um, back in the 90s when I was running the Open Path group called the Cauldron of Anduin, and, you know, every month we would gather and we would do two different kinds of rituals and sorts of things. And at this time in my practice, I was very much more leaning heavily on goddess energy because, you know, when you're coming from recovering Catholic aspect of things, you know, it's more of like, "Oh, the goddess," you know. And that was a thing. That was a thing in the 90s, too. I'm much now like, fuck, fuck the gender, Fuck the gender binary!
But in that time, I was just sort of like, well, I don't know about this horned god stuff, I don't really feel it. But I happen to be leading this trance meditation for everybody that evening. And I am not someone who plans out every tiny little moment, if people haven't figured out already. I am not someone who scripts everything. That's why I do mostly improv when I dance, too. I just like to find out what happens in the moment. And so in this particular thing, I'm leading the trance and they're going to like something like Stonehenge, right? And they were off doing their thing. And I could hear somebody coming up the stairs.
This was at the Rose's Tap Room, which is a converted church, big old stone church, and they turned the third floor into tap room. So it was kind of the party room. It was all wood, and no alcohol at that time. But and so you could really hear, because this is old, old building, somebody coming up the stairs. And I'm like, this is really rude. You know, somebody's this late that they're just going to try to sneak into this ritual. And I had my eyes closed, but I can hear them like walk up behind me. And so like, I'm leading people to a safe place and I got them to like, "And now commune with the stones," or whatever. So I had a moment to turn around and like confront this person. And there's no one there.
Kim: I knew you were going to say that! *laughs*
Tempest: Not only was no one there. It started to smell like goat.
Kim: Oh, no.
Tempest: And at that point, I had like brought in a little thing about some sort of like meeting the green man or the horned god or something. I forget what it was, kind of in that space. Oh, fuck. And, you know, there was nowhere for anybody to hide. It wasn't like, you know, you could have...
Kim: Smelled like a goat.
Tempest: Yeah, yeah. Like there's just no, yeah, there's no, you know, nobody else smelled like goat. Nobody else, you know, there was nobody else that anybody can see. You know, I can't remember if anybody else heard the feet, someone coming up the stairs or not, but like, I think one or two people were like, remember if anybody else heard the someone coming up the stairs or not but like I think one or two people were like "Yeah I heard like, who was that coming up the" and I was like "Nobody." So I, you know, finished the thing and and kind of sent them on the way and after that I started really incorporating more like really exploring like, okay what what is this horn god type of energy, and what's that all about? What's that all about in practice? And my encounter with someone who was very playful and definitely sarcastic. And you know, had a commentary about everything. But that was my like, "Wake up. It's more, there's more to, you know, deities and experiences like that." And so, yes. If you smell goat and you see no one there, it's probably Pan.
*both laugh*
Kim: Well thank you for the story.
Tempest: You're welcome.
Kim: And thank you for being on the show.
Tempest: My pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me.
Kim: And thanks again to everybody listening, and I will see you on the internet! Bye. *fade inI So Tempest, welcome to Patreon.
Tempest: Ooo, we are in Patreon land! *fade out* *fade in* The ones in Arizona sound very different than the ones in California, than the different ones in Seattle, and the Rhode Island ones. Accents!
Kim: That's cool!
Tempest: Super cool.
Kim: Now I want to hear them.
Tempest: The scariest ones I would say, like, I think the ones in California sound a little bit more like women screaming at their reflection.
Kim: Oh, that's... specific.
Tempest: Yeah. *both laugh* *fade out*
Kim: To hear more of the Patreon episode, head over to patreon.com/CleverKimsCurios for a free seven-day trial. The $5 tier will give you podcast bonuses, videos, recipes, access to the Marco Polo and Facebook groups, and more. There are also tiers starting at $10 where you can get spell boxes, intentional handcrafted jewelry that I make especially for witches, and there's even a special crystal tier. Check it out at patreon.com/cleverkimscurios. Thanks for listening to this episode of Your Average Witch. You can find us all around the internet on Instagram at Your Average Witch Podcast, Facebook at facebook.com/youraveragewitchpodcast, Instagram @youraveragewitchpodcast, at YourAverageWitch.com, and at your favorite podcast service. Want to help the podcast grow? Leave a review. You can review us on Amazon and Apple podcasts, and now you can rate us on Spotify. You just might hear your review read at the end of an episode. To rate Your Average Witch on Spotify, click the home key, click on Your Average Witch Podcast, and then leave a rating. If you'd like to recommend someone for the podcast, like to be on it yourself, or if you'd like to advertise on the podcast, send an email to youraveragewitchpodcast at gmail.com. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next Tuesday.