In this episode I'm talking to Madame Pamita, author, and educator (and cat mom).  Pamita talks about the Pope of witchcraft, why she no longer does coercive love magic, and how her slavic ancestry helped shaped her practice.

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Instagram: @madamepamita 

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Madame Pamita.

Slavic witch, educator, and tarot reader

Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where every Tuesday I talk to a new witch about witch life, witch stories, and sometimes a little witchcraft. In this episode, I'm talking to Madame Pamita, author, educator, and Slavic witch. Pamita talks about the Pope of witchcraft, why she no longer does coercive love magic, and how her Slavic ancestry helped shape her practice. 
Before we get to the stories, let's hear from our sponsor this week, Ravens Keep Forge. Is your spiritual practice lacking the magic of metal? Are you looking for sacred forge tools for your magical practice? Discover these answers and more at RavensKeepForge.com. Ravens Keep Forge is the official website of the magical blacksmith himself, Sam Thompson. You might remember Sam as a previous guest of this show, and he's the author of the acclaimed book, Metal Never Lies, An Introduction to Metal Magic. Shop for all your hand forged metal, magical items, wands, scribes, anvil dust, steel divination dice, talismans, and so much more at Raven's Keep Forge. You can also find him on Instagram and Facebook at Raven's Keep Forge. Sam was also kind enough to give us a discount code. If you enter the code METALNEVERLIES at checkout, you'll get $5 off a signed copy of the book. See you there at ravenskeepforge.com. Now let's get to the stories. 

Kim: Pamita, welcome to the show. 

Pamita: Thank you so much. 

Kim: Would you please-

Pamita: Hello. 

Kim: Hi! Would you please introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and what you do and where they can find you? 

Pamita: Of course. My name is Madame Pamita. I'm a Ukrainian diaspora witch. I'm a teacher of witchcraft and magic. I'm a best-selling author. I'm a candle maker. I'm a spellcaster. I'm a tarot reader. I'm your Renaissance witch. I have a YouTube channel where I teach witchcraft. I host a couple of podcasts: one's called Magic and the Law of Attraction, which is a general folk magic, you know magic... You know beginner advanced all in between. And then I have one called Baba Yaga's Magic, which is about Slavic magic exclusively. I've written a bunch of books. My latest one is Baba Yaga's book of Candle Magic and Madame Pamita's Magical Tarot. I own a store. It's an online spiritual apothecary called the Parlour of Wonders. And you can find me online at parlourofwonders.com. 

Kim: What a good name!

Pamita: Thank you. 

Kim: That makes me want to go there. 

Pamita: Well, it used to be a physical store. And then not coincidentally, right before the pandemic, I decided to make a shift, not knowing what was ahead, but just sensing perhaps intuitively. And I moved completely online and we have a factory now and it worked out perfect during the pandemic. So yeah, but it used to be a little cute little shop, but now it's a cute little online shop. 

Kim: What made you start writing? 

Pamita: Judika Illis made me start writing. Judika is the author of the encyclopedia, Five Thousand Spells. She's written amazing books and she is a wonderful witch friend of mine. I'm a Cancer and she's also a Cancer. Our birthdays are two days apart and so we've been friends for a while. And she said to me a few years back, she's like, what are you writing right now? I'm like, oh, I'm working on a love spell course that I'm gonna put together, teaching people how to do love spells. And she's like, who's publishing it? I said, I'm just doing it myself. She's like, why don't you write a book and bring it to us at Weiser Books? And I'm like, I can do that? Yeah, you can do that. So I presented Madame Pamita's Magical Tarot, which was my first official book. I had an e-book, a short e-book that I had made, but this is my first official book. So she got me started, and she was my editor, and she's amazing, and I just love her, love her so much. And then for my second and third book, I went over to Llewellyn and I did the book of candle magic through Llewellyn and Baba Yaga's Book of Witchcraft through Llewellyn. So yeah, that's how I got started. Hmm another witch cast a spell on me. 

Kim: I love it! Sort of. The last part made me think "Oh wait."  

Pamita: But it was a good spell! Maybe not though, I'm obsessed with writing books right now. Maybe it was, I don't know. But I do love writing books and I, and I'm working on a couple right now. I had a couple that I co-authored this past year that are coming out soon. I should talk about those real quick. One is a beautiful, I wrote the little white book which isn't little but the little white book for the Silver Acorn Tarot, which is done by Stephanie Bouchama, and that is a gorgeous, she's an amazing illustrator. And she wanted, I said, "If you do a deck, I wanna write the book." And she's like, "Okay, you're on." 
So then I went in and I wrote the book for her, and that's coming out shortly, like in a matter of probably weeks, it'll be out. And then there's another book that's coming out called Cancer Witch, that Llewellyn is doing a series with Ivo Dominguez, is the main writer on all of the 12 books. There's 12 different books, one for each sign. And we talk about, but he had a co-author for each one that was of that sign. So I was the co-author on the Cancer Witch book, because I'm a Cancer, it's my son's sign. So that one's coming out sometime this year and I'm very excited about that. So those aren't my books per se, but I had my hand in the in the potion. 

Kim: Neat. What does it mean to you when you call yourself a witch? 

Pamita: Oh, I'm a rebel, and so witchcraft fits me perfectly. I always say to my students, there's no pope of witchcraft. You get to decide for you. So when you do a spell your way that makes sense to you and works for you, it's great. If I do my spell a different way and it works for me, that's great. We each get to decide for ourselves and that independence and that, I would say this self-determination of being a witch is so important. It's empowering. These institutions, these religions that there's somebody on high that is dictating this is right and this is wrong, you're going to hell, you're going to heaven. All of these things really kind of rankles me at my core, I have to say. And so having the autonomy and independence and freedom and empowerment of the witch is exactly what being a witch is all about. 

Kim: Those words empowerment, and there's no Pope of witchcraft... makes my heart grow.

Pamita:  Your shriveled little heart is growing like the Grinch?

Kim:  yes It's popping out of the cage of my ribs. That's horrible. Anyway... but I love it. I love that there's no pope of witchcraft. I love that!

Pamita:  Yeah, you get to decide for you. So it really doesn't matter the details of how we do our magic. And Wicca is not the only form of witchcraft. I think it's one form of witchcraft, but we have folk magic. We have all kinds of folk magic witchcraft practices all over the world. This is something that has existed in all cultures throughout time. And so if magic is real, which I believe that it's real and we work it, if I do it one way and you're from a different culture or a different practice and you do it your way, it's totally fine. We're still under that umbrella of being a witch, and I love empowerment, I love that autonomy, and you get to decide for you. It just makes me happy too. 

Kim: I super don't like being told what to do. So.

Pamita: It's the perfect religion for a Taurus, right? 

*both laugh*

Kim:  Don't tell me no. 

Pamita: Exactly. I've got a Taurus moon. That's where it's coming from, my Taurus moon. I don't want anyone telling me what to do either!

Kim:  Now growing up, did you have any family history with witchcraft? Like even if your parents didn't necessarily call themselves witches, or still wouldn't, did they ever do anything that seemed kind of witchy? And if you grew up Catholic, I'm thinking the answer is going to be yes. 

Pamita: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I always say my first candle magic was when I was a toddler in a Catholic church, you light a candle in a church and you make a wish. That's a candle spell. 

Kim: Yeah. 

Pamita: And I still do it when I'm going in Europe, when I'm in Europe or I'm traveling around to Mexico or Europe or someplace where they still have the candles in the churches, these beautiful churches, I'll go in there and light a candle. Because oftentimes the places where the churches were built were old pagan sites of magic and power. And so I don't, you know, you've got your church on there, that's fine, but I'm going to do my thing, you know, do my witchcraft in there. So I do.
 But yes, I grew up, so I grew up Catholic and my mom, but my mom was Ukrainian Catholic. So my grandmother, who I never got to meet in life because she died before I was born, but my mom would tell me stories about my grandmother and she was what we would call like a healer, but also was Catholic, but you're doing witchcraft and you're a healer. The more familiar, might be more familiar to people to think about something like curandurismo, which is healing in Mexican culture. We have healers that are operating within, you know, they might call on saints, or they might call on God, or they might operate in that way, but they're doing older pagan practices of healing and these old folk magic practices. 
So my grandmother would do these things, and my mom would also do, let's say, my grandmother did the big things, healings and all kinds of real intense magic, making poppets and things like that. My mom did lesser things, but we did a lot of divination. In fact, my very first tarot deck I got when I was 10 years old. My mom bought it for me because we went into, we were in Salem. It was 1974. We were in Salem and there was one witch store back then, which was Laurie Cabot's Witch Store. We went into this store and my mom says, pick a souvenir. I picked a little miniature writer, Waite Smith tarot deck and I got very excited I loved fortune telling anything fortune telling oriented. 
And so I got home with this little deck and I was very excited thinking I was gonna learn how to do fortune telling but of course, I looked at the little white book and I like I'm 10 years old What am I gonna do with that? I don't have the capacity to understand that. So I used to play with them by like paper dolls. But we had Ouija boards in the house. I had a Ouija board. I had you know Tarot cards, I had fortune-telling cards. I had I mean my mom did not forbid any of this, it was perfectly normal. You could be Catholic and simultaneously be doing witchcraft, it was no problem, so yeah.

Kim: I have not heard that before.

Pamita:  So this is a very Eastern European thing I'm discovering, you know, that this coexistence of pagan practices with the later Christianity, because Christianity came pretty late to Eastern Europe. And so for Ukrainian people, it's like you could still do your magic and go to church, you know, as long as you weren't doing bad magic, you weren't hurting anybody, you could certainly do a fortune telling or this or that. So I think it's cultural. I think that it's, you know, and it also kind of, I guess it kind of makes sense as long as you're doing it under the auspices and you're calling in the saints and Jesus and Mary, who cares, right? That's kind of the attitude, it's a little bit of attitude, right? So I grew up in a magical household. 
I didn't realize that really at the time, I kind of thought everybody's Catholicism looked like us. But as I, you know, I started talking to more people, and particularly the people, see I also grew up in the 70s, which was also hippie, everything was very hippie, and all this stuff started blossoming up. It was in the 80s when we had this real pushback from evangelicals on TV that Dungeons and Dragons is going to take you to hell, and all this silliness, heavy metal music is devil music, and there's backward masking, all this silliness. 
So that's when I think some parents would key into that and then get afraid of any of these things that were magical, the Hobbit or Led Zeppelin or whatever. So I think that came in the 80s. And so for my younger witch friends who are like, oh yeah, my parents were like, burn that tarot deck, that didn't exist really. And it certainly didn't exist with a mom who grew up with a mother, her own mother, who was doing magic. She was like, yeah, it's fine. So I was very fortunate in that way. 

Kim: Cool. Do you have any daily practices that you'll share, or if not daily, consistent practices? 

Pamita: I have lots of practices, and they've kind of, I want to say, as time has gone on, they've, it's become very layered. I really am an advocate of living a magical life. Which is not to say that you need to be doing ritual every single day, but to take the things that are your daily normal things that you do and turn it into magical practices. So for example, if you make a cup of tea, you can bless that tea and turn it into a potion. Particularly if you know a little bit about herbalism and you know chamomile is great for drawing in abundance or prosperity, you could then bless that chamomile tea for abundance and then drink it. So that's the way, I think there are many things throughout my day that I do that are magical things, but they're part of my daily life and I turn them into magical things. 
One of my favorites, I'm a Cancer, okay we're gonna go in that direction, which is I love a bath. I love a bath. Like bath, to me, is a restoration time. And so I will put bath crystals, bath salts, herbs, oils in my bath, and turn that into a spiritual cleansing ritual or an empowerment ritual. But it's also restorative. So I have lots of things throughout the day, blessing my food and my drink, taking a bath, being intentional for the day, saying affirmations, which affirmations are really spells. That's just casting a spell on ourself. And so, and then I do more formal things that they're not quite so daily, like I might do a candle spell. I do candle spells on the new moon and on the full moon. I'm also, being a Cancer I'm very moon oriented, so I love working with the cycles of the moon. I pay attention to the moon. So, it's more, to me it's more of "How can I take this mundane thing and turn it into a magical thing?" That's how I live my life. 

Kim: I feel like I should do more of that. I do some, but I always feel like I should do more. But also, I'm an overachiever. I'm also the eldest child, so. 

Pamita: Well the point of it is that you don't have to do more. It's a mindset of what you're already doing. So if you're drinking a glass of water, bless the glass of water with an intention before you drink it. That takes maybe two seconds. It's like a consciousness of how we move in our day to day life and how we can honor our magic all the time, all the time. 

Kim: Yep, that elder child "You need to do more of that. You need to do more, you're not doing it right." Okay, we'll get on that later. 

Pamita: We might make you cry. 

Kim: I am anticipating it. 

Pamita: You don't have to do more. I give you permission to do less. 

Kim: Isn't it great to be able to do that? When somebody gives you permission to do something? I'm giving people permission to do something all the time and they're like, "Oh my gosh, thank you."

Pamita:  Yeah. 

Kim: So thank you! Would you say that witchcraft has changed your life? 

Pamita: In profound ways. I mean, I can't really I remember being at that same time everything really sort of blossomed for me at 10 where I sort of found my, or began searching for, my path. I'll say that I remember reading a book at that time, or read something somewhere that witches would turn and spin around three times and bow to the full moon. So I would go out in the backyard on a full moon night when I would see the moon up in the sky and I would spin around three times and bow to the moon. So I thought that's like...

Kim:  Where did you hear that? I feel like I've read something like that. 

Pamita: I have no idea. Some kid's book. 

Kim: What the heck?

Pamita: I have no idea. So I was always searching. And I also remember, this is the wildest thing, in my junior high library. So this is seventh, eighth, and ninth grade. So this would have been seventh and eighth grade that I was at that school. They had a Diary of a Witch by Sybil Leeks' book, which is, there were so few books back then. This is the 70s. Very few books about witchcraft, of course, no internet or anything like that. And I didn't have access to finding these things. Back then you had to like send a coupon off from the back of a magazine or you know, find a weird esoteric store.
 And even though I lived, back then, and still live in a big city, I didn't have a car, I didn't have nowhere to find these things. It wasn't like today where we have access to information you know, so readily. So I remember discovering these books and reading these books and wanting to... find that path. And then when I when I finally did, which is like I'm searching, you know, I'm doing tarot, I'm reading these books, but I really didn't feel grounded in my practice or feel authorized. You know, I think as a new witch, you always feel like, "Am I doing this right? Am I? Am I doing it the right way? What am I supposed to do here?" 
You feel like you need training wheels, right? And I didn't have those training wheels. And then in my early 20s, I discovered there was a coven here. I could drive at that point, obviously, and could get around and had more autonomy and dependence. So I finally discovered a coven, a large coven of women that were practicing, and I worked with them for several years and that gave me the confidence to be a solitary witch. That I could now, I didn't necessarily have to have... I love my Coven sisters, I still keep in touch with those Coven sisters from 30 plus years ago, but I feel like now I'm such a solitary witch. 
Mostly out of convenience because I don't like to organize people, and I don't like to be at a certain place at a certain time. *laughs* So that's like really, it changed, so the question is, did it change my life? It has been my, you know, I was a seeker. I was looking for it and when I discovered it, it was that transformative thing where the consciousness is now, you don't have to bow to some authority, but that you can create it for yourself. You have your power. It gave me my power back. I think that's the experience of many witches, is that witchcraft and being a witch gives you your power back, and that's a profound change. 

Kim: I can absolutely see that. Yeah. 

Pamita: Yeah. It just aligns with me so perfectly, you know, I think that's I'm not just it's not for me to even say, you know, like as I said earlier, like someone else's witchcraft practice or this or that. It's not even for me to say someone else's religion. If a religion works for you, if you like that sort of thing-

Kim: *laughing* "If you like that sort of thing." 

Pamita: Well, you and I know what it's like on the other side. Right. But if some people, I think some people like to have that structure, they don't want to have to think about it, you know, because the flip side of of having your own practice is you have to do a lot of work. 

Kim: Yeah, yup. 

Pamita: You have to do internal work to figure out what your ethics are. You have to try things and see if it fits for you or doesn't fit for you. You have to make mistakes along the way. And so some people don't like that. Just like there's some people who wanna have a job where they show up, do their job, a boss tells them what to do, and that they get to go home and have their life back, right? I am not that person. I'm working seven days a week, which is not great. I mean, I should, like I should take my own advice and create, give myself permission to do less. But I get to decide the journey. I get to, I'm the captain of my own ship. My ship is me, but I'm the captain. So I can decide for myself. So there's more work in that, and some people don't want that. 
Some people do like the structure of a religion. So I would never say to anybody "Your religion's bad." It's not right for me. And I don't like it if a religion oppresses people or creates oppression, and many religions do. But if somebody wants to follow that path for themselves, I don't say to them, you're wrong or bad. It's right for them. It's not right for me. 

KIm: Plus starting out... I mean, I was in the army and I left because don't tell me what to do, but it did teach me so much about... be somewhere on time. Wear the right things. It's structure. It taught me structure, and I needed to learn that, and I wouldn't have learned that on my own. So I think starting out it's good. And Wicca was the first things.... Was it Wicca For the Solitary Practitioner? The one that's everybody's first book after a certain, like in the 80s, that's the one I started out with. 

Pamita: Yeah, Wicca was accessible. I was involved with feminist Wicca, and so it was all Goddess centered it was all women that were practicing. I did enjoy that environment, but I also, I took from it many of my own... it aligned with me in many ways, but in some ways it didn't align with me. Yeah, I I You know, I've grown, really I grew out of it and some, at some level... And I also Feel like a folk magic path, which is really what I align with was as much more who I am. But But what's interesting is, to have that structure is great. Then you can break the rules, your own rules. It's just like an artist ,you know, somebody says "Well Picasso is just scribbling on a paper. I could do that." 
But Picasso was a trained artist who learned how to do very representational art and then left from it, and it had an effect that is different than somebody just scribbling on a paper. So to have that foundation informs the freedom, right? When you become an artist and you have a lot of freedom, you have more freedom if you can understand the more structured thing. So like you, understanding structure from being in the military can go like, "Oh, there's certain things I like about this, and there's other things that don't work for me and I now get to pick and choose what works for me, and I get to branch out from the things that don't work for me." 

Kim: So I don't know if he is the only person who said this, but Tony Bourdain said to break the rules, you have to know the rules. 

Pamita: Right? By the way, I have a very unique quirk, which is dead people like to come visit me in dreams, even dead people I don't know. And Anthony Bourdain came and visited me after he died. And I didn't- 

Kim: This is going to break my heart. I will cry. I will cry. I still cry over him.

Pamita: Yeah, he, I didn't know anything about him other than he was a chef. I didn't read any of his books, didn't watch his show. I didn't have anything to do with him. And sometimes I find that's why spirits can come visit you, because you are a blank slate to them, you know, or they're, you know. So he came in my dream and I was, he was cooking and he was super happy and there's this woman that was with him and he's like showing me how to cook and showing me how to make this dish. And he was super joyful and he's really happy and I'm like, "Wow, he's really making this amazing dish." And then I sort of go, "Oh, this is Anthony Bourdain, this is that guy." I didn't even think I knew his name. I'm like, "This is that guy. Oh, that's who you are. Oh, you're like famous." Like in my dream, I was having this like revelation that sometimes happens in real life when you meet someone famous and you're like, how do I know you? That's happened to me before. 

Kim: Oh gosh, yeah. 

Pamita: I'm sure they get that all the time. But so in my dream that happened, and I was like, oh, this is really sweet. And he was so happy. He was happy. And I feel that that when I shared that, it was like maybe a week after he had passed. And I feel like so many people when I share that dream are like, "I'm so glad to know he's happy. I'm so glad to know he's at peace and he's happy." And I think that's what he was sharing. It's like, I'm, I'm, I'm in pure joy. I'm I'm my spirit is still alive. Don't, you know. Don't worry about me. I'm good. And I think when he was living with like such a heavy heart, you know, he had a lot. And at the end, I think he had a real, sorry, I'm probably rubbing the mic because I'm rubbing my heart. 
When he was, you know, had such a heavy heart, I think that was a message that people needed to know. And so I inadvertently passed it along, didn't pass it along for that, but yeah. So yeah, you have to learn those things so that you can break the rules. Because if you're just, if you're, I think that knowledge base is really valuable. And I think that's what the complaint of, I'm gonna call it like quote unquote TikTok, which is like people who, you know, read one book about witchcraft and then brand themselves and as an authority when they don't have it, right, you know, I'm not saying that they don't have a interesting take or something like that, but I'll tell... I can share one little funny thing that happened. I did a YouTube video where I was doing readings for a very hugely popular group of people The, I don't know if you know, the Try Guys and that whole thing, this that and the other? Okay, so I was doing it for their girlfriends and wives. I was doing tarot reading. I was teaching them tarot reading. We did this thing a couple, several years ago. Like three, four years ago. So recently, because of all the scandal about them, somebody, a young man comes on who's a tarot reader. And he looks at my tarot reading and is armchair doing the... 

Kim: Quarterbacking. 

Pamita: Yeah. Well, I did the reading for the woman that got cheated on, but she wanted to know about her child. So when I do a reading about a little baby, a little baby, I'm looking at like, oh, well, what's the personality qualities of the baby? Like what are they gonna, how are they gonna blossom, right? What are you, when you're doing a reading about a baby, what else can you do, right? Baby's not doing anything, so I'm doing this reading and that's what the question was. Well, he says, "I'm gonna read this reading that she did," meaning me, "and I'm going to talk about it as if it is their relationship." I'm like, that was, first of all, that wasn't the question. And then he said, oh, I said something about Knight of Swords and this and that. And he's like, that's not what that card means. 

Kim: Boy...

Pamita: And I go, really? Because if you look at 10 different tarot books, you're going to see 10 different interpretations of what the Knight of Swords means. So why are you saying your interpretation is right and everyone else is wrong? Just shows me as a reader who's been reading for four decades that you don't know diddly squat about tarot, because you've only read one book. Because if you read more than one book, you would see this person over here says this about the card, this person says this, this person says that, and they're all right. That's what makes the tarot interesting, is because we can have many interpretations. And it's intuitive, too. So I was like, oh, you're kidding me. So I was just like, shrugged it off. But this is the I think the issue with people who don't have that baseline structure maybe, or knowledge, or haven't immersed themselves in it and are new to it. They often think as new people do, there's one right way to do it and everybody else's way is wrong. So that's a very interesting tangent that we went on. 

Kim: But... I liked it. 

Pamita: So yeah. So his first of all, he wasn't even reading the thing I was reading, but him jumping in there, he's just trying to get views and all that stuff. Trying to jump on the bandwagon. I get it. So I didn't even comment or get into it with them because I'm like, what do I care? But I found that fascinating. I think that's the issue that some people have with people who are authorities who don't have, you know, who are 18 years old. How much, unless you grew up in a family where you were practicing witchcraft, how much experience can you have to be able to speak with authority? You probably have read a few books and now you know, you know, so that's not to say that they don't have good ideas, things like that. That stuff can come up. But yeah, I think I think having that foundation... That foundation can really Inform your... you're breaking away from tradition or you're doing it a different way. I tried it that way and I like this way better, right? You know, that's fine. But you know to just say your way is the only way, and everyone else's way is wrong. It's a little funny to me.

Kim: It's too much for me. 

Pamita: Then we're getting into the the Pope of witchcraft, then, you know? Right? We're going back to that concept that there's a pope of witchcraft, saying this, you, you cannot you cannot do  coercive spells. So are you saying that, you know...

Kim: Exactly like, are you asking permission to go... Do you think people like, ask permission to curse someone? I doubt it. I mean they might, but I doubt it.

Pamita:  Yeah, and there's also the idea that what you put out there is going to come back to you. And I do think that there's some validity to that, but then it becomes this prison where you're afraid to do any kind of magic unless it's only like the perfect... it freezes people up from doing a spell. Because this is a very interesting thing that people will say, "Oh well what happens if my spell backfires?" The concept exists out there, which is so odd to me, that you could do a spell for love and have the person hate you. I say that's not how magic works. It either works or it doesn't work. It doesn't go into negative reversal upside down land. 

Kim: *laughter*

Pamita: Right? It's like if you if you make a cake and you do something wrong and you add salt,  a cup of salt instead of a cup of sugar...

Kim: "It's steak now." 

Pamita: Exactly. It's not going to be you're gonna go into a vortex of never having cake; you go, "Oh, I made a bad cake. I'll do it over again." That's as far as it goes. So I always tell people, if you do a spell, your spell will either do the thing, or it will do nothing, and you'll be back at the same place you were when you started. It does not go into territory where the person is going to hate you because you did a love spell on them, for example. 

Kim: There's got to be something in the media as... when I say me I mean like TV, movies. There's got to be somebody who thought, "Oh, how can we make this interesting for this TV show? I know!" 

Pamita: Yeah, that would be a great little twist in some witchcraft movie, which is very funny. My colleague and employee here, his name's Chris Onorio. He is younger than me, he's millennial. And he has seen all the witchcraft movies from like the 80s and the 90s. Well, I was a witch by the 80s, so I was like, I thought witchcraft movies were cheesy and lame. I watched, when I was young, Bewitched. Yes, I watched Bewitched. But that was when I was a little kid, you know, that was like, still working on that, you know, wiggle your nose and clean the house thing. That would be a good one. Still working on that one. But you know, that's what I grew up with. And I saw that cheesy thing. 
But by the time I was an adult, you know, older teen and an adult, I wasn't interested in witchcraft movies because back then they were all really, made witches look terrible. And they were all really off and wrong. Some of them, I found out later, I looked at them, I'm like, oh, they actually had a consultant on this one. Practical Magic, you know, it's like, oh, that one actually has some legit things in it, you know? So I think that, you know, those things like Harry Potter, and this and that, they can open people up to the idea that it's possible for them to be a witch and it's possible for them to do magic. But if you're expecting to hold your wand out and to say a Latin word and have lightning come out of it, you're going to be really disappointed. So I think they do, they help in some ways, but they also create these notions for people that witchcraft is instantaneous. I do a spell and it's supposed to, I'm supposed to get a result right away. No, not usually. *laughs * Not usually. Right. 

Kim: Or even the result that you're expecting. 

Pamita: Yeah, sometimes there may be a twist and turn to get you to that result, and it may look bleak in the moment, but then it turns out to be great in the end. So that's another thing I love to teach, is don't get too caught up in what's happening right now in this moment, because it can all shift and change and be fabulous in a minute. 

Kim: Hmm. What would you say motivates you in your practice?

Pamita:  Well, I, my personal practice, my super duper duper passion is teaching. I love to teach. I love... and book writing books as part of that teaching, you know. Like it's the way for me to reach another medium for me to reach people to teach. So I love teaching and showing and empowering people. The best part about teaching is watching that moment when someone is like, "I don't know if I can do this, is it possible?" And then they do it and it's successful. 

Kim: *squeals with glee*

Pamita: And they're like, right? It's like this gorgeous moment of empowerment. And it feels so gratifying to me as the teacher to see that spark come up when someone does the thing, whatever the thing is. So that's what I love about teaching. I love empowering people and this is like the perfect medium. If I'm teaching witchcraft, it's literally about empowerment and self-empowerment, and I'm watching that happen in real time. So that's why I love teaching. I love teaching. So that's my motivator, is to learn, and then also curiosity is a big motivator for me. Like I love delving into Slavic magic because I knew it from my family, but I didn't know it was only like the tip of the iceberg. And I didn't understand exactly the depth or the meaning behind what was happening.
 So like for a great example of that is, my mom told me a story that when she was a little preschool-aged girl, she got very ill and she said, my mother made a doll and gave it to me in bed and then after I got well, the doll was gone. And I was just like, oh, it was a doll. She wanted to entertain you while you were in bed or give you something to cuddle. But then I found out that there's this whole concept of the Motanka, and the Motanka is a spirit doll that you create. And it is a practice to give it to someone who is sick, because it houses the ancestor spirits. The ancestor spirits take the disease away and then you burn the doll, which is exactly what my grandmother did, but my mom was a little kid, so she didn't know what was happening, but the story had enough... I knew there was something more to the story, and so this is very motivating for me to research and find out. So I love delving in, learning more. It's very, very inspiring to me, and then sharing that information with others and letting it continue the chain, you know. 

Kim: I want to know about that stuff. 

Pamita: Right? 

Kim: I want to know, I want to know things. Would you say that you deal with imposter syndrome personally? 

Pamita: Not really. I think when I was younger, especially when I didn't have the training wheels of having other witches to practice with, I was like, how do I do this? So it wasn't because I wasn't presenting myself out there. I was very private about it, extremely private about it, would only tell my inner circle what I was doing. I didn't have that imposter syndrome because I was very not public. But by the time I got to be public with it, I had felt more confident in my practice. I think what was... it kind of goes along with imposter syndrome, but the idea that, I was more afraid not that someone was going to say I was fake or fraud or B.S. or whatever, but I was more afraid that people would say "You're evil and you're bad, and what you're doing is crazy." 
Which almost feels like ancient trauma. It doesn't feel like my trauma, because I was a punk rock girl, what do I care what they think of me, right? But I felt like there was some old trauma. Maybe genetically old trauma or past life trauma or whatever, that I felt that I was going to be condemned. So the way I came out to like the wider world as a witch was actually through music. So I did this, I got very into 1920s and 1930s jazz, blues, folk music, country music, old pre-war music. And there was all these like kooky songs, they sing about sex, they sing about drugs, they sing about everything that we all think, oh, we invented, right? No, people in their 20s were doing this, right? So I would sing these funny old songs, but what I did was I did a little vaudeville show where I was a fortune teller and I would hold a deck of these oversized tarot cards and I would have an audience member come up, pick a tarot card, I would tell a little funny fortune and then I would play a song, me and the band would play a song associated with that card.
Well, the card wasn't, you know, I wasn't doing like a real fortune telling, I wasn't doing a real divination, we just sort of had the canned responses. But the fact that I was presenting myself, and I did know how to read tarot, but I wasn't really reading, I wasn't reading, I was performing, right? So, but people would say, oh, can you do a real reading for me? Can you come up and do a reading for me? Can you do readings at my party, my Halloween party or whatever? And so the response that I was fearful of that I could hide behind this sort of comedic, funny, entertainer kind of persona, when I saw how people received me was the opposite way of what I was fearing. That gave me the courage to go forward. So I have students who, especially like tarot students who are learning tarot and they're like, "I'm really afraid to tell my friends." I go "When you tell your friends that you're doing this, I can guarantee you, unless they have some other issue like they have religion that is forbidding it or something like that, you will, the response will be Oh my god. Can you do a reading for me?"

Kim:  Yeah yeah

Pamita: So I think that that actually you have to get over that. And then, and putting yourself out there is a great way, but just do it gently. You know, do it in little ways to close people, and see what they respondl and then widen it a little bit more, and then widen it a little bit more. There's gonna be some people who are gonna judge you but when you see the percentage is so miniscule to the, compared to the people that are like you're amazing. Oh my gosh, I love what you're doing. It will not matter. You know, it won't matter. You can laugh it off. 

Kim: Well, so... You don't feel like you have imposter syndrome. What would you say is your biggest struggle with your practice? 

Pamita: Well, the imposter syndrome... I think everybody has doubts. Like when, especially when you're writing a book you're like are people gonna get it. "Are they gonna like it?" I think that's like a normal fear that every writer has every creator has. "Are people gonna like it? Are people gonna get it?" You know, so I don't diminish that or say that but, you know, it's like you have... for me I think maybe my Taurus moon, I push through it. You know, I just go "I'm just gonna, who cares. Done. Get it done." Exactly. And I'm always kind of like, you know, and then at a certain point you get enough positive feedback that you don't worry about it so much anymore. So I think that is just a process that everybody goes through, especially when you're beginning. Oh my gosh, when you're beginning. One of the ways I think that you can beat it is by remembering that as a spiritual person, you're also a channel. And if you don't write that book or if you don't create that class, somebody's going to miss out on that. Somebody's going to miss out on that. Don't you have a favorite witchcraft book? I sure do. And what if that person was like, oh, I don't know if I should write this book. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. It would have never come out and you would have never had that joy and enjoyment. So maybe I'm really good at doling out Catholic guilt.

Kim: *laughing* I was thinking "You just guilt tripped me ma'am!"

Pamita:  *laughing* Hey, I can't help it I grew up in that environment what could I say? But that, for me, somehow helps me get over it. Because I go, you know, what this is going to reach the person who needs it I don't care about the other people. So if one person reads my book and it touches them, if one person goes to my class and it works for them, I'm happy. I'm happy because it did something for them. So remember that you're a channel. It's hard when you're writing a book because you don't necessarily know what people are thinking, but then social media has been really great for that. You get people responding or contacting you and saying nice things. So that definitely helps, you know? Kim: Hmm. 

Pamita: So my biggest struggle when it comes to witchcraft... Probably my biggest struggle is motivating myself to do bigger witchcraft. Because I do a lot of little, all day long, every day, and maybe I get over committed to things. I say yes to lots of things that maybe I should be more picky about. Not this, not here, now, but I'm saying like, you know, things I don't enjoy, you know. So, or I, or I create things that then I have to do the thing, you know. So I think my biggest struggle is probably doing those bigger rituals and bigger things, because when it comes down to like, you know, a holiday, a big special day, I kind of am burnt out by the end of the day and I don't have maybe energy or enthusiasm to do a big hunking bunking ritual. 

Kim: So overextending?

Pamita:  Yeah, it's probably it's definitely like I need to, you know, scale back and have more free time and less time looking at screens and all that jazz. 

Kim: Oh my gosh. 

Pamita: Right? 

Kim: Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh. 

Pamita: I just did a class on intuition for my tarot students and one of the things I was like, dang man, I'm reading myself on this one because it's like if you want to develop your intuition, the intuitive voice is a very quiet voice. Your rational mind is a very shouty voice. So you have to be still. So meditation, going for a walk without playing Pokemon Go, that's a big challenge for me. You know, not constantly looking at social media, looking at your screen, picking up a screen every time you have downtime. To be still, to have a quiet ritual. Maybe sit down with your tea potion and just sit down with a blank piece of paper and a pen rather than your phone, scrolling through your phone That is a simple thing. So I read that. I mean I was teaching that, I'm "Boy. Boy, I need to do more of that myself." I think I have a pretty strong intuitive voice and I hear it, but I certainly could use that. So that's my biggest struggle, is quiet stillness, you know, so I'm not always doing.

Kim:  Looking back, what is something that you used to do when you first started out that you don't do anymore and why don't you do it? 

Pamita: Coercive love magic. *laughs* I did a love spell and it worked great, and then when I wanted to get rid of him, I had to do another spell to get rid of him! So I think it wasn't the worst thing in the world, but I'm like, oh my love spell worked really great. Now I can't get rid of this guy that I want to move on from. And so I think that sort of said to me like yeah, I don't need to do a coercive love spell. I don't need to have somebody somebody bound to me and making me miserable and making them miserable, it's not good, you know?  So I don't say to someone "You can't do coercive love magic." Of course, I mean I teach coercive love magic. If people want to use it, great! And it may work for them in the perfect way that they want it. But if you're in a relationship where you're you're just getting to know someone, you don't know if you want that person around forever. And that was the situation. You have to spend time with the person to get to even know. 
So you can modify a spell, but I did a full-on like "You will be crazy about me!" kind of spell. And I'm like, oh my god, he is crazy about me and he won't leave me alone! Right? And it was, you know, it wasn't good. So I think that's something I personally don't do, and it's made my life a more peaceful life. I have a great relationship that all I did was a spell so that we'd have a kiss. That's the only spell I did. I wanted a first kiss, and I did, and it was great. It was an awesome first kiss, we've been together five years. So but yeah, that's why I don't, you know. Why I don't do that anymore. But it's not to say anyone else couldn't do it, or I don't have any opinion about anyone else doing it. And I teach it, because I think it's useful to know, but you get to decide for you. And if you do a spell that you want to undo, you know you can undo it. You can undo it. 

Kim: Yeah. I have a pretty laissez-faire view on stuff. 

Pamita: Yeah, yeah. 

Kim: Just leave me alone and I don't care what you do. 

Pamita: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So yeah, that's something I used to I did early in my practice and sort of learn something from it, you know, I mean the think that's part of magic is learning. Its you're gonna, you know, it's like a chemistry set. You might have the you know test tube that blows up in your face and you're you know.

Kim:  Yeah 

Pamita: But then you just don't do that again, right? You go, okay, that didn't work out quite, it worked great, but it didn't have the end result that I really wanted, and you have to be reflective about that. Think "Why did that not work? Oh, well, how can I make it different in the future? How can I do it in a better way or in a way that's more in alignment with me?"

Kim:  Do you have any favorite tool? Do you have a favorite tool and it does not have to be a physical object. 

Pamita: Well, I say that the root and core and the seed of all magic is your intention. That's intention is it. If you're really, and I haven't reached this point myself, and I don't even know if there's anybody that I could say, I'm sure there's somebody out there in the world that has. But if you can be very focused in your intention, you don't need any accoutrements with you, any accessories or anything like that. Because intention and will is where it's at. But I love an accessory. Because the reason is, what do we all do? I want this spell. Oh, but I want this thing. I'm gonna do this spell for this thing. Oh, what if I don't get it? What if I, what if I, yeah, what if I don't deserve it? All kinds of weird emotions come up when we desire something. Or we have, we're creating something. 
So what my belief, and my understanding  from my own practice, is that we have things like candles, herbs, crystals, all these other beautiful things that are around us that we can use that are allies in our magic, that we can invite them to our practice and they have a resonance of a certain kind that's going to support our work. So if I'm going to do a spell for love and I bring in a rose, for example, the rose is a beautiful flower for love. It's been in thousands and thousands of years. It's been used in love magic. There's a reason for that. People have tested it. It works. It's great. So I invite the rose to be my ally in the love spell and the rose doesn't have an opinion about my spell. 
If I say I want a hot and heavy romance and I'm gonna bring this red rose in, and red rose you're gonna, will you help me with this? And then we work together, the rose doesn't have an opinion about that relationship. Your friend might go, why do you want that one? Or why you do this? Everyone else will have an opinion, including you. But the rose will just be like, sure, let's make it happen. So I love working with candles. I think candles is my number one tool as I think about tools.
 I make beeswax candles. I'm obsessed with bees. I love bees. I'm like, I think they're such amazing, intelligent, and they have a different kind of intelligence than the human intelligence, but highly intelligent creatures and beings. Beeswax is magical. It is magical. It is powerful. I love working with a beeswax candle. It's my favorite. So satisfying. There's so much you can do with a candle. You can read the flame. You can read the smoke. You can read the wax remains. You can look at the candle as it's burning. I mean, to me it has an endless world to explore with just a candle. What a beautiful, beautiful thing to dive into. 

Kim: Plus they smell good. 

Pamita: Right? Oh my gosh. 

Kim: I love smells. 

Pamita: You're just like my boyfriend, my Taurus boyfriend. He smells everything. Everything. And he has a very good sense of smell. Taureans love to smell, taste, sensual. I love it. 

Kim: Now we all have low days. We all can be in a slump. I'm just coming out of about a two-week one. What do you do to pull yourself out of a magical slump? 

Pamita: Sleep. A lot. 

Kim: Oh my gosh. 

Pamita: Am I speaking your language, lady? *laughs*

Kim: It's a struggle, that's a serious struggle to me.

Pamita: And right now in wintertime, I took out the heating pad out of my closet. It's been so cold. You and I know. We're like, it's below 50. Oh my God. 

Kim: You're going to freeze to death!

Pamita:  I put my heating pad in my bed and OMG, it's so cold. I'm like, I'm going to freeze. I put my heating pad in my bed and OMG,  I never want to leave my bed. Oh my god, but that's probably not the best way to get out of a slump.

Kim: Heating pads!

Pamita: Heating pads is not a way to get, that sort of keeps you on the slump, I think I just want to be in my bed and be cozy, sleeping and resting and reading and doing all those things in bed. I think one of the things for real, for real reals that gets me out of a slump is when I mindfully spend time amongst nature. It sounds super simple. I'm sure a million people have said it, and blah, blah, blah, but something is so magical about nature. And it doesn't matter where you are. There is nature around you. 
There's something called, and it's a real thing, called plant blindness, that as humans, we block out seeing plants because they're all around us. So to focus, we don't focus on plants because then we'd be like, you know, "Oh my God, I can't focus," because you're looking at all the plants. But so we have to kind of almost consciously switch that plant blindness off and turn on our plant vision and connect to the world of nature and looking at the plants. 
You can be in the city. What's growing up out of the concrete? What has someone planted in their yard? What's that tree growing over there? Hey, there's a squirrel in that tree. Oh, there's a crow over there. What are they doing? I think this is such a restorative practice. And when you start to go deeply into it, and you immerse yourself in plant and animal consciousness, it's like, to me, the thing that, it's like so healing, it's so healing.
 I know, and again, I think it's like a earth sign Taurus thing, in my Taurus moon. I really think that that is probably why I used to garden. I don't have time to garden now. I miss gardening. But just being in connection with nature will sort of rectify, and I should say recalibrate my compass again when I feel like I'm drifting, or I'm getting off track, or I'm feeling sad. I mean, a lot of times stuff in the news and social media and all that stuff can feel so overwhelming. And when we disconnect from that and spend time and mindfully be out in nature, and I think the mindfulness is the switching off of that plant blindness, the animal blindness, we can really restore. 

Kim: Right, I told you right before this I had kittens in my shirt. Yeah. That's partly because I was feeling grumpy this morning. I was like, "Come here and give me love, children."

Pamita:  Oh my gosh, my cats. We're going to go on a tangent now. My cats are super magical and very restorative. Petting your cat is like, if you're inside, you can go out. Have a pet. If you have a pet, interact with your pet. They're here for such a short time. 

Kim: Plus, they really want you to. 

Pamita: Right? Well, I would say my little one, Ozma, doesn't necessarily... She's a bratty girl. 

Kim: What a good name. 

Pamita; Yeah. I have Glinda and Ozma. So I named Glinda after Glinda the Good Witch, and she is a witch cat, which is crazy. She's totally a witch. And then Ozma was from the second book, she's the princess, had the, you know the story, right? And she's Princess Ozma, and she acts like a little bitchy princess, so she bites me if I don't pet her the right way, she'll let me know that you're not petting me the right way. So, yeah, there's not some, it's conditional love from her, it's unconditional love from Glinda, she's amazing. I had a pet, I'm gonna say one more thing about my cats. I had a pet psychic. I had a pet psychic. I will give you the name of my pet psychic. He's wonderful. He said to me, he said, send me a picture of your cats. 
And so Glinda is like a little chubby cat. She's cute, but she's kind of a chubby girl. And Ozma is like young kitten, super adorable, super cute. And he's like, you know, most people are like, oh, she's a little kitten. No, she's so cute. He's like, yeah, she's fine. But I want to I want to talk to you about Glinda. And he said, Glinda used to be a human in a past life and she was a magical worker in a past life. 
And I'm like, it totally makes sense because she talks when she comes in. She goes from outside. She's like *meows* She's having a conversation telling me about her day and then anytime I do magic She's like sitting there kind of inspecting at looking at it. Did I do it? Right? Did you do that candle spell right? Okay, this one passes. All right. Okay. Yeah, this one passes the other one couldn't, she's mildly interested but more like a cat. but Glinda is like a human. She acts like a human in a cat suit. It's crazy crazy. So it was crazy that he looked at a photograph and he knew. He was amazing. He knew by looking at her, which I'm like, he didn't know anything about. I didn't tell him anything about her. Right. It's amazing. So yeah. 

Kim: I want somebody to do that for me. 

Pamita: Right?

Kim: One of my good, good friends says that and I fully believe it. 

Pamita: So your penance is to take cats into your life, right? That's your punishment.

Kim: We have four dogs too, I just haven't spoken about them yet. 

Pamita: Oh my gosh. Well, I do past life work and I teach past life. I have a past life class coming up this year where I teach how to do past life work. There's many ways to access past lives and you know through visualization, through cards, I just show how to do it with cards and all different ways that you can do it. So you'll have to come on to that class. 

Kim: Who or what would you say are the three biggest influences on your practice? 

Pamita: Well, my practice has evolved and changed as I think a healthy practice can and should do. It's fine to stick with one thing and stick with it, but I think for me who's always learning, researching, looking, exploring, it's going to grow and morph and evolve over time. Probably my mom and my grandmother are the biggest forces in my practice now because I'm practicing Slavic magic. I'm immersed in it. I love it. So just that and my ancestry and all of that can be a huge influence. I think also another huge influence is like teachers and things like that. Is that what you're looking for? 

Kim: Whatever you find to influence you. I mean, it doesn't even have to be people. 

Pamita: Okay. Well, one of the things that I am obsessed with right now, totally obsessed with, is mumming, which is actually going back to core shamanism. You know, shamans in shamanic practices all over the world. You know, the word shaman comes from Siberia, but we have, we use it collectively to represent all people that are practicing this. You know, it's become the sort of word that we use. So these practices exist all over the world, and we go back to that animistic time. I'm very much an animist. I see the life force and everything and the power and everything so anything can be a magical tool but I love this shape-shifting aspect of core shamanism and shamanic practice and I love mummying which is putting on the outfit or the costume or the mask to take on a persona of an animal or a figure or a spirit or whatever and that whole process. So I'm obsessed with it. I'm learning about it and I collect masks. I love them. And so that's- 

Kim: That just made me nervous. 

Pamita: Really? You don't like masks? 

Kim: I guess not. *laughs*

Pamita: But I also like dolls and I also like clowns. I like these things that people don't like. People make things that make people nervous. Partly because I think that they make people nervous. Maybe that's why I like it. It is fun. But the idea of masking, which we see in, you know, people familiar with things like Krampus and Mari Lwyd. 

Kim: That's what I was thinking of, Krampus. Yeah. 

Pamita: Yeah. So if you've ever gone to like a Krampuslauf or Krampus run, you know it's the person in there but there's something very mystical about that that is spiritual to me. So it might be, you know, most people are going just to have a good laugh, you know, whatever, Christmas, being naughty at Christmas or whatever, right? But I see the real deep spiritual part of it and I see it as very ancient practice that goes back to prehistoric times when people would dress up and we see, you know, cave paintings with people with animal heads and human bodies and so on.
 So I love this practice and I feel I'm slowly going into it. I haven't really delved into it as deeply as I hope to dive into it, but I feel very inspired by it. So that's kind of something that's influencing me at the moment. Slavic magic is influencing me deeply at the moment. I'm an animist and a spiritualist, so I think another thing that influences me is working with spirits and working with the spirit of things. 
One of my teachers is Krista Lynn. She was my, I did a year-long course shamanism apprenticeship, which was amazing. And it was so interesting because some of the practices overlapped with practices that I was already doing. And it gave me context for those practices that I was already doing, like shape-shifting and, you know, doing that, which I was doing on my own, but I didn't know what I really, what I was doing. And now I have some tools that are very helpful. So yeah, so I kind of find I go more, more and more and more animist and more and more and more spiritualist as I, the more that's sort of where my practice is going. So those are the influences I would suppose. 

Kim: What would you what advice do you have for a witch who's just starting out?
 Pamita: Well, if you're just starting out, I would say get books rather than relying on social media so heavily. It's sort of fine to find things on social media, but I think they think sometimes lack depth and sometimes there's some awkward information out there that isn't maybe isn't really well thought out sometimes. Like here's an example. Can I just give a for instance?

Kim Yeah.

Pamita:  When I was getting started in witchcraft back in the 80s in a real way like you know I was in the 70s, I was a little kid, but in the 80s, I was, you know, young adult teenager and 20s. And we would see Mercury retrograde is like, yeah, you shouldn't do, you know, start something new, you shouldn't do a contract during Mercury retrograde. You probably your stuff is probably gonna break, give yourself some more time. And that's what we thought about it. Now, fast forward to like the last five years, all of a sudden people are like freaking out. 

KIm: Losing their minds. 

Pamita: Yeah, about Mercury retrograde. Like I should just go under the covers and not emerge for eight weeks. And I'm like, and the Mercury retrograde shadow and there's this and that. And I'm like, you know what Mercury retrograde is, is an astrological phenomenon and it is an energy. You can use that energy. You can revisit things, revise things. That's what it's for. It's not about punishing you. So I feel like it's like maybe somebody had an experience, but I also think social media people want clicks, right? They want their clicks. So they do click bait. So the click bait is like, "Oh my god, Mercury retrograde, the sky is falling!

Kim: You're gonna die.

Pamita: Exactly, so that people will click on it. But what has resulted in is, I think, and people have negative experiences. Your computer breaks, your thing doesn't work, but this doesn't work, right? It's negative, but it's not like you cannot function in that, right? How do you work in that? You go back and you fix it, right? So I feel like the disempowerment of some of the information out there is to me a little like yeah, meh.  Really? So for a new witch that's just starting out, I'd say use vetted resources. People on posting on social media can post anything they want. It's not vetted. It's not checked out. 
Go to a book. Because the book has a publisher and an editor who are going to make sure that they're not publishing anything that's going to be super outrageous or crazy. You will have a resource that you can turn to when you look at a book, especially books that are like, I love books that are like herb magic books. Oh, what can I use this herb for? Great. I love that and I can refer back to really, you know, tattery books because I use them all the time, right? So find one.  
And then the other part of new witches now that wasn't the experience I had, is that there's too much information, and you're trying to drink out of a fire hose. So pick one thing. Do you want to do candle magic? Get the Book of Candle Magic by Madame Pamita and start there, and you will be an expert in candle magic by the time you come out. You'll be able to devise your own spells. It's not recipes. It's teaching, you how, it works, and how to do it. So if you start with one book and focus on one area that you are intrigued with, whether it's candle magic, herb magic, kitchen witchery, find one thing, one book and delve deeply into that. Then when you do that, it'll probably lead to something else that you're intrigued with and interested in. And then you can find one or two books about that, and learn about that. So just don't get overwhelmed with so much out there because I was fortunate to start at the beginning when there was nothing out there. And now I've been able to absorb and learn as I go along. And so it's easier for me. But if you're just starting out, you need to start with focus. Start with focus. Focus on one aspect of witchcraft that you're really intrigued with. And that's a great place to start. 

Kim: Nice. Who would you like to see on the show answering questions like this?

Pamita:  Selena Fox. All my people that I love. Oh my gosh. Matt Auryn Selena Fox, Judika Illes. I love all different kinds, you know, I like all different kinds of magic and I like learning about different magic and different spiritual paths. So seeing a wide range of people, like having, you know, somebody that's practicing Hoodoo, someone that's practicing Jewish magic, someone that's practicing maybe super curanderismo, practicing, you know, whatever. To see these different forms from different cultures, that is great. I love that. I love learning. So I love seeing something that I don't necessarily know about. 

Kim: Me too. I'm trying to get those people. 

Pamita: My guest is a cute, cute, cute, cute, cutest. Okay, she's kittenchops is her handle on Instagram. And her byline is cuteness is my sacred space. She made an amazing deck. She's an amazing illustrator, amazing artist. She's super famous. And she did this beautiful deck. I love so much. But she has these, I think they're Maine Coons or something, the cats that are super fluffy and big. She's got a couple of them and they are the cutest things in the world. And she's always posting cute kitten pictures and tarot. What could be better? Tarot and kittens. Yeah. So cute. So, yeah. She's wonderful. 

Kim: Well, was there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted to talk about or anything you wanted to ask me? 

Pamita: Yes. I would love to, first of all, say that I have all, because my passion is teaching, I have tons of workshops coming up. And if people want to find out about the workshops that I'm hosting, teaching, facilitating, they can go to witchcraftworkshops.com and that will take them to the page on my website. I also have a giveaway. If they would like a free book, I have a free book called Seven Secrets to Supercharge Your Spellwork, which is a very free, it's a free 33-page e-book, you can get immediately, and it will show you how to use oils in your spell, how to use incense, just a little primer to sort of get you started with these things, or ways that you might not have thought about using it. They can get that by signing up at spellsquad.com. I would also like to give a discount code to shop at the Parlor of Wonders. Who's your favorite witch? 

Kim: Oh, dear.

Pamita: Your favorite media witch. Like in a movie. Yeah, like is it Sabrina, is it? 

Kim: Honestly, it's Nancy, because she's so... 

Pamita: I love Nancy. I love Nancy. All right, Nancy's gonna be the code. So if they use the discount code Nancy, they'll get 15% off their purchase through the end of April. People can use the coupon code Nancy. That will tell me they're a fan of yours. They're in your little beehive. They're in your hive. They'll get 15% off. Yeah. Perfect.

Kim: Nice. Thank you. 

Pamita: We got all kinds of... 

Kim: Everybody say thank you. 

Pamita: It's... We've got candles, oils, spell kits with directions if they want to do a spell and they just want to... Don't want to have to look it up or make a spell by themselves. We've got figural candles out of beeswax. We've got tapers. We've got sachet powders, bath crystals. We've got all kinds of little goodies that are like incense burners and room sets and all kinds of things, so yeah. Cool. Yeah, so they can go shopping. Nice. Discount code NANCY, they get 15% off. Expires April 31st. 31st of April? 30 days, no, 30th of April. I'll make these in April. Yes, okay You're making me do math!

Kim:  Yeah it's numbers so my brain just shut down. Now the last two things that I ask. Number one is, would you please recommend something to the listeners? It does not have to be which related at all, just anything.

Pamita:  Recommend something hmm. Oh You know what? I'm gonna do a very selfish one It's really dumb. It's a really dumb. I want everyone to watch, on Netflix, Kath and Kim. Have you watched Kath and Kim?

Kim: No. 

Pamita: Oh my gosh. It is an Australian comedy series that's two women. It's women-centered. It's super great. And it's this mom and daughter. If you like Ab Fab, if you like Absolutely Fabulous, you will love Kath and Kim. 

Kim: I'm there!

Pamita: You will love Kath and Kim. It's a mother and daughter who bicker all the time. The daughter is like a snotty brat and the mom is like kind of falsely chipper and kind of uptight and they're great together. And the comedians are so funny. They're so damn funny. So watch Kath and Kim. Australian people, every Australian person I meet, I go, do you know Kath and Kim? Because I want to talk to people about it. English people know about it, and Australians know about it. So every time I meet an English person, Australian I'm like, "I want to talk about Kath and Kim!" and they're like "That show is from like 15 20 years ago, what are you talking about?"  I'm like, "I know but I just discovered it!" So everybody watch. And it's the Australian one, don't, I think they did an American one. That was a big flop. Don't watch that, watch the Australian one, it's on Netflix. It's freaking hilarious. Hilarious. It's so goofy. It's like ab fab. If you like Ab Fab, you'll love it. It's great. So that's my recommendation.

Kim: Okay, I'm gonna add it because I love Ab Fab. 

Pamita: Yeah, you will love this. It will crack you up it is so bonkers and silly and funny funny funny. And we all need to laugh now, we all need to laugh. It's a good way. It's a good thing to laugh. So that's my recommendation. 

Kim: Thank you. 

Pamita: You'll be quoting it to me with an Australian accent next time we talk, I know. 

Kim: Okay. Now the last thing, I don't know, do we have time? The last thing, please tell me a story you love to tell.

Pamita: A story I love to tell... like a fairy tale story or a story about my life? 

Kim: It can be that. It can be a story... I prefer things that like, I remember this happened and it's something goofy you did as a child or young adult and your family all knows the story and they will, and it's a family reunion story. That's what I'm asking for. 

Pamita: Okay. I got one. At two years old, I ran away from home. And I think that has the essence of who I am. It's the essence of who I am. Super  felt safe in the world and my older brother had left the door unlocked, and I just wandered out. So I wandered. I remember, this is my earliest memory, is I remember getting picked up by a woman who had two sons. She had a black Cadillac, this is the 60s, right? She had a big black Cadillac and she put me in the back seat. She found me wandering on the busy, like two blocks down from my house is like a kind of semi-busy shopping street, right? So she found me, she put me in the car and she called the police. And then the policeman came and got me and brought me back home. And he said, "Oh, you little silly peanut. Here's your house." And I go, "You're a stupid peanut."

*both laugh*

Pamita:  I was, what did the kids say? A C A B or whatever. I don't know what the acronym is. 

Kim: ACAB. 

Pamita: ACAB. ACAB, two years old. I called him a stupid peanut. But I ran away from home. So this is my story. My mom, my poor mom, I mean, if you have kids, I mean, just losing a pet outside.

Kim: Yeah, I can't imagine. Yeah, I can't. I'm not going to think about that. 

Pamita: Yeah, it's like that will make you cry. But I survived and thrived and still am rebellious to this day, and still feeling safe in the world and following my fancy and going wherever I want, and still calling cops stupid peanuts. So that's my story. So yeah, ran away from home at two. 

Kim: Dang. 

Pamita: Adventurer. I'm a five. You know, in numerology, I'm a five in my birth numerology, which is the Adventurer, so it makes sense. I love traveling. I love going to places. I just love it. I love it. I love it. So, yeah, so I started out, started young. 

Kim: Nice. Good. I approve. I like rowdy people. 

Pamita: We're birds of a feather, girl. 

Kim: It seems! Well, thank you so much for being on the show. 

Kim: Thank you so much for having me. It was such a wonderful conversation. I feel like you're my new wonderful friend. 

KIm: That is my goal, it's my goal. 

Pamita: And I can't wait to talk again sometime. 

Kim: All right. And thank you again. And I will see you over on the Internet. 

Pamita: Thanks, Kim. Have a beautiful day. Bye. 

Kim: Thanks, you too. Bye!

Kim:  So, Madam Pamita, welcome to Patreon. 

Pamita: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. This is the exclusive behind the red velvet rope VIP section, I see. 

Kim: The fancy pants. The fancy pants... me being much more casual. Even though it's pretty casual, I'm even more casual. 

*both laugh* *fade out*

Pamita: *fade in* Well, to me, I am very, I'm very passionate about witchcraft and being a witch. And one of the reasons is because I'm a feminist. And I believe that witchcraft and witches, doesn't matter gender, doesn't matter if you're a witch, but you sure as heck are probably, or ought to be, a feminist, if you're a witch. Because it's really empowerment for people who are disempowered. You don't have an authority. I always like to say there's no pope in witchcraft. *fade out*

Kim  To hear more of the Patreon episode, head over to patreon.com/cleverkimscurios for a free seven-day trial. The $5 tier will give you podcast bonuses, videos, recipes, access to the Marco Polo and Facebook groups, and more. There are also tiers starting at $10 where you can get spell boxes, intentional handcrafted jewelry that I make especially for witches, and there's even a special crystal tier. 
Check it out at patreon.com/cleverkimscurios. Thanks for listening to this episode of Your Average Witch. You can find us all around the internet on Instagram @youraveragewitchpodcast, Facebook at Facebook.com/youraveragewitchpodcast, at YourAverageWitch.com, and at your favorite podcast service. Want to help the podcast grow? Leave a review. You can review us on Amazon and Apple Podcasts, and now you can rate us on Spotify. You just might hear your review read at the end of an episode. To rate Your Average Witch on Spotify, click the home key, click on Your Average Witch Podcast, and then leave a rating. If you'd like to recommend someone for the podcast, like to be on it yourself, or if you'd like to advertise on the podcast, send an email to youraveragewitchpodcast at gmail.com. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next Tuesday.