In this episode I'm talking to Marshall, the Witch of Southern Light, cohost of Southern Bramble podcast, and author of Cunning Words, A grimoire of tales and magic. Marshall and I talk about animism, traditional witchcraft, and magical contracts.
Marshall's linktree
instagram
tiktok
patreon
Be sure to check out this week's sponsor, Prairie Fire Herbal, and her beautiful and inspiring Sun and Moon ritual kit.
prairiefireherbal.com
Marshall, Witch of Southern Light
cohost of Southern Bramble Podcast
Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where every Tuesday we talk about witch life, witch stories, and sometimes a little witchcraft. Your Average Witch is brought to you by Clever Kim's Curios. In this episode I'm talking to Marshall, the Witch of Southern Light, co-host of Southern Bramble podcast, and author of Cunning Words, a Grimoire of Tales and Magic. Marshall and I talk about animism, traditional witchcraft, and magical contracts. Before we get started I want to tell you about this week's sponsor, Prairie Fire Herbal, which you can find at PrairieFireHerbal.com. If you remember, Penelope of Prairie Fire Herbal was actually a guest on the show, so I'm delighted to be able to talk about her products. Her latest offering is absolutely gorgeous. It's a sun and moon kit, and here's what she has to say about it:
"Designed to inspire ritual that honors the ebb and flow of day and night, light and dark, that which is exposed by Helios, and that which is hidden by Artemis. It isn't often that I call on planetary opposites in my own ritual, but I've spent the last year thinking about the axiom that to shine fully in light, we must be willing to plumb the depths of darkness. As someone whose witchcraft feels more grounded in darker, hidden aspects of occult knowledge, working with the sun can feel harsh. After all, the eye of Helios sees all, and nothing can remain hidden before him. There's comfort in the dark of night, where secrets dwell, where we can act clandestinely, where we take on a mantle of invisibility. But either exists only because of the other. There is no growth without the ebb and flow of day into night and back again."
Penelope actually sent me one of these gorgeous kits and let me tell you, it's amazing. It comes with several items like Florida water which smells absolutely wonderful. I'm excited to brew myself some sun tea with the Carmelite herb blend. There's also Helios ritual oil, an Artemis ritual unguent, loose incenses for both the sun and the full moon, a mugwort and rose elixir for dream work, which I'm super excited to try, and a delightfully crunchy-sounding, soft and softly fragrant dream pillow stuffed with lavender, chamomile, hops, and roses. Be sure to check my Instagram for the unboxing video posted on Saturday. And if you want your own kit, you better get one now. It's a limited edition offering. Definitely visit prairiefireherbal.com to get your kit today. Now let's get to the stories!
Kim: Okay. Hello, Marshall. Welcome to the show.
Marshall: Thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here.
Kim: Could you please introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and what you do and where they can find you?
Marshall: Absolutely. I am Marshall. I go by the Witch of Southern Light. You can find me on Tiktok and Instagram at WitchofSouthernLight, you can find me on Twitter at MarshallWSL. I am a witch by trade. That's not my full-time job. I'm actually a hairstylist, so I'm an artistic and creative person. I was born and raised in Texas. I still live here now. I identify as kind of, I would say, probably somewhere between a folkloric and traditional witch. My practice is very landscape-based and based on storytelling and folklore.
Kim: That's what I love. And you have a book coming out too, right?
Marshall: I do. I'm really excited. It actually comes out on March 20th, the spring equinox, called Cunning Words, a Grimoire of Tales and Magic.
Kim: I just love the word cunning, in all its different forms.
Marshall: I do too. And you know, I love the etymology of the word because when you look it up a lot of times people immediately, like the immediate definition is a little bit more on the nefarious side. But I feel like it has evolved somewhat to mean something that in my opinion just goes one step past clever, you know?
Kim: I love, and honestly I was not aware of this, that you are also a word nerd. (laughs) That thrills me.
Marshall: I am, yes. I am a word nerd. It's weird because I have a hard time going back and forth between really embracing the etymology and meanings of words as they evolve within the English language, and also being a super stickler for their origin source. So it's extremely hypocritical. I'm admitting that now. But it's very interesting how I cling on to certain ones and their origin sources and then I cling on to the evolved sources of different words. So catch me if you can, you know?
Kim: Literally an hour ago I was having a conversation about semantics and being pedantic and how I need to calm down because I'm a grammar knucklehead.
Marshall: And you know, it's very interesting because I have a really close friend. I love this friend. But he is very into grammar and syntax and I find myself getting into arguments with him sometimes because he will argue the letter of a statement over the actual spirit of a statement. And sometimes it drives me nuts because he knows what I'm saying, but he's arguing over the way I may have used a specific word that he wouldn't have used in that way. And you know what? I feel like that's probably like 90% of all internet arguments. They cling on to one word and turn it into something that it's not what you meant and... (sighs)
Kim: That's me. I am, I am constantly yelling literally yelling aloud at myself, "Stop! You're being classist!"
Marshall: Right? And it's over silly things, too. I'm not talking about, just so so listeners know I'm not talking about important things. I'm not talking that things that that are deeply matterful. I'm thinking of more of like literally... I can't, I hesitate to come up with an example right now, but I think a lot of people who...
Kim: We know what you mean.
Marshall: You know what I mean. Exactly, exactly.
Kim: So would you please, and one of my friends this morning just said they can't wait to hear your opinion on this.
Marshall: OK, oh mygosh.
Kim: ...or your idea on this.
Marshall: Let's go.
Kim: What does it mean to you to call yourself a witch?
Marshall: Oh, what a nuanced question. It's a beautiful question, and I feel like that's something that the majority of us who identify as a witch will spend the majority of our time identifying as a witch discovering. I think that that is an identity that one takes on when they dive into the world of witchcraft, before we realize the mantle we are carrying. And the more we practice, the more we accept the responsibility of that identity. Mostly what I think it comes down to is: a witch is someone that works with spirits or spirit forms. And I think immediately people's first idea or connotations they hear of working with spirits, they think of necromancy, they think of the dead. And I go so much deeper than that. I am an animist. I see spirit in absolutely everything. My computer has a spirit. The water I drink has a spirit. The herbs we work with have spirits. My home has a spirit. My car is a spirit. The land that I work with is a spirit. The crossroads is a spirit. And there are spirits at the crossroads. I think a witch is someone who interacts with and works and traffics with these spirits to make. shit. happen. That would probably be my most generic definition. I do think it's really important to take a step back and look at some historical aspects of what it means to be a witch. I do believe transgression is involved in the identity of a witch and witchcraft. Now, what that transgression is can look different from practitioner to practitioner. I think one of the most interesting aspects of the idea about witchcraft and transgression is that a lot of that stems back from medieval witch trials, where they believed that the soul leaving the body to fly off the Sabbat was considered the ultimate transgression, because the only time the soul should leave the body is in death at the hands of God. And to do that without the hands of God, and making it happen, would be an absolute transgression against the natural order of things. So I think in modernity that transgression still exists because we are working with a craft that, while some may consider to be within the natural world, it also kind of goes against the natural world. Well, I guess, depending on what you think the natural world is. We are movers and shakers of the tapestry of fate. We pull the strings with our practice. And I think that that is part of what it means to own that identity is to accept that you are part of that transgression and revel in it.
Kim: OK, that was a delight to listen to.
Marshall: Well, thank you.
Kim: There is a beautiful rhythm in that.
Marshall: Thank you. You know... I think that everyone will probably answer that question a little bit differently. And I think... (pauses)
Kim: They do.
Marshall: Yeah, and I don't think that almost anyone is ever going to answer it wrong. I have very strong opinions about things that are witchcraft, and things that are not witchcraft. Now, what you identify as is not up for me to say. That's up for you to say, and then turn around and live. I do think there are a lot of people who like to throw around the word witch. And again, I'm not judging. I don't care. You do and call yourself whatever you want to. You alone know what you are doing in the darkness. You alone know what you are doing under the full moon, or not doing under the full moon. That's totally up to you, you know?
Kim: I feel like that begs the question as to what you call witchcraft, then.
Marshall: Ooh, so personally, I think- okay. I have a long history in multiple forms of spirituality. And one of the ones that I think really, really crept up a long time, a little bit of history. At the same time that Wicca itself through the, it was really gaining momentum through the 70s, 80s, and then the boom that it was in the 90s, new thought was also gaining traction around the same time. Especially as, you know, theosophy made its way into, across to the West from the 1800s into the early 1900s, and then these ideas funneled down into what we call "New Age" that really, really crescendoed from the hippie movement of the 60s and then kind of really worked its way up into the 70s and 80s. So we have this big boom of new thought and new spirituality and going against the grain of majoritively Christianity. Around the same time, and unfortunately, I think that put New Age and witchcraft in the same room, but they do not belong to the same place, in my opinion. New thought and the concept and ideas of westernized eastern religion, I think, really removes a huge part of the cultural contexts that deserve to be observed, to process these spiritualities correctly, in my opinion. The idea of law of attraction and... (sighs)
Just a lot of these new age ideas that really brought along, I don't know, Starseeds, Law of Attraction, every single person who seems to be a channel and then wants to turn around and sell, you know, five more books to Hay House. I feel like these things got squished with witchcraft and I do not believe they are the same. I think witchcraft is literally a craft. It is a practice. It does involve tools. That doesn't mean it has to be super capitalistic. You don't have to spend a lot of money. But I think that without a craft itself, it is not a practice. It is a thought movement. And I do not think that you, that thinking thoughts to make thoughts a reality is witchcraft. I think that's a different spiritual idea. It has its merits. It has its pros and cons. But it's not witchcraft. And I think a lot of people, as witchcraft boomed, really kind of took aspects of all of these spiritual ideas. And, you know, we got a lot of eclectic practices. Which is a wonderful thing, in a vacuum. Unfortunately you get a lot of spiritual bypassing with some of these new age ideas. You get a lot of elitism with these concepts and ideas like, "Oh, I am ascended to a 5D, I'm a Pleiadian, and I'm here to save humanity from itself. And I know this because I got a reading for $35 on Etsy." And yeah. I think I rambled on, but I think I answered that question.
Kim: Yes, and... it's going to take me a minute to process.
Marshall: Okay. Understood. And for people listening, if you identify with a lot of these ideas, if these are part of your spiritual concepts, I am not saying that they are not valid, because of course they are, if they are working for you and they are serving you. But I just have my own personal ideas and definitions about what makes up different categories of different types of spirituality and that's okay.
Kim: And the whole point of this particular podcast is to introduce people to new ways of thinking, and new ideas, and new things.
Marshall: Perspectives matter.
Kim: Yes. I'm going to delve back a little bit, and see sort of where this stuff came from. Do you have any family history with witchcraft, or any sort of magical practice?
Marshall: You know, it's actually it's funny. I mentioned all that about Eastern practices because my dad was born in the Philippines and raised in Singapore, and his parents lived a significant amount on the other side of the world. So, growing up at a very young age, I was exposed to different food sources, different –
Kim: I was going to ask about the food.
Marshall: Yeah, a lot of different food sources. And unfortunately, you know, I am a, I am a, I'm gay, but I'm a cis white man. So I just want to put that out there so people understand a lot of the culture of these foods were removed as I was having them here. And I, as an adult, have gotten much more into looking into the culture of them, which is a beautiful thing. I love when you enjoy the food of somewhere from across the world, and you take the time to look into the history of how it was made and its cultural significance. But I was exposed to a lot of these different ideas. I was exposed to Buddhism at a very young age. I was exposed to a very different type of mentality from my grandma specifically. My grandpa on my dad's side was a jackass, but my grandma, she died when I was very young, I want to say probably first grade, and she had a love for me that was so intense and I so bonded with her. And there are so many things that are alike about us. She was very into her garden. She had a big couple of acres of land, they lived on half a mountain on this countryside in Texas. And she had a huge vegetable garden, a greenhouse. She grew tons of herbs, was very into holistic healing. And they had a chicken coop that I would gather eggs from. It was very getting back to the landscape. And she really installed a lot of those concepts with me. I remember she had this book of herbalism that I didn't even realize was there till after she passed away. And it was a gift that was given to me later on. But it was fascinating.
She did all these little things like, you know, when I was visiting for a week or so, if I got a splinter, she would be like, "Oh, you got to put some bacon on there." So she would literally tear off a piece of raw bacon and put it over my finger with, and put a bandaid over it, because the impure meat would dry out the impurity from the skin. It was a folk practice, you know? She was very into a lot of these different types of folk practices. So there were little types of dollies hung up in different places, as... I wouldn't necessarily say that she thought of them as spirit protectors, as much as she thought, "Well, these are the customs that I am accustomed to from living in a certain culture for so many years," and she brought them back with her. So I would not say that I have a family history of witchcraft, but I would say that I have one of something that brings a deep love of landscape and animism and seeing spirit in so many aspects of things.
She actually introduced me to daddy long legs, and my love of daddy long legs. You know, they are a kind of a scary looking spider, but she taught me at a very young age, she'd literally pick one up in her hand and she'd say, "Look how tiny, look how tiny they are. They can not hurt you. He's not hurting me. Look how they tickle." And I was, you know, as a toddler, I just thought it was funny that these little, these little things were ticklish. And I mean, they live in the countryside, so their house would be just absolutely bombarded with, with daddy long legs sometimes. And so I just found that she really opened up an affinity for the landscape. And I'm deeply grateful for her for that.
Kim: That sounds lovely.
Marshall: Thank you.
Kim: That's the life I want.
Marshall: I look forward to it one day.
Kim: Mine is, well, I don't really want tons of daddy long legs.
Marshall: But yeah, besides that. As an adult, I found out they're one of the most poisonous spiders in the world, but our skin is too tough for their teeth to penetrate. So yeah, that's cool.
Kim: I'm not really here to be, have the bugs on me.
Marshall: Right, right.
Kim: But give me two acres and a garden and a greenhouse.
Marshall: Yes, exactly. Please give me the Owens greenhouse.
Kim: Can you introduce us to your practice a little bit and maybe share ritual any rituals you do consistently, if you have any?
Marshall: Sure, I don't want to get too detailed with certain rituals because I've written them myself and they're part of something I'm not ready probably to put out in the world just yet. But, like I said, I'm a traditional and folkloric witch. I follow the concepts of the witch's devil, or the folkloric devil. So there is this concept of a genius loci, a spirit of my land, a spirit of the crossroads that is liminal in the place that I live that I reach out to as a gatekeeper. I have done a dedication to this path. I follow, I'm not sure if anyone's ever read The Crooked Path by Kelden, Besom, Stang and Sword, or Traditional Witchcraft by Gemma Gary, but it falls in the lines of that kind of concept. So I, as I said, it's very landscape based and very animistic based. So I look at the folkloric devil and then not the counterpart, but the other side of that, as I call the witch queen. So have you ever read, by chance, The Crooked Path by Kelden?
Kim: No.
Marshall: For any listeners, I would definitely suggest looking into that book if you're interested in getting a really great general starting of traditional witchcraft. But basically I work with these concepts of the Witch-King and the Witch-Queen, or known by different names as the Folkloric Devil and the Witch-Mother. And these concepts stemmed... I know where they stem from, but I don't want to get too much into history as much as I want to share how they are affected in my craft. I see these two entities as representatives of the physical and the non-physical. The folkloric devil is the physical gatekeeper and an initiator, and then the witch queen or witch mother is the non-physical. She's the gnosis. She is the light between the horns, and together they are progenitors of everything that is, in my craft. So that includes things I can touch and things I cannot touch. So it's weird talking about the witch mother or the witch queen in a way that is easy to explain, because it is the most intangible. I see her very much as this weaver of the threads of the tapestry of fate that make up the universe. And she is that gnosis that comes to us when we are in trance, the inspirer of magic. And then the witch's devil represents more of that physical aspect, the things we can touch, the actual crossroads we can walk to. Yeah, those are the two beings or spirits that I work with. And then it kind of breaks down into a spirit court, where I also have the cross-quarter ways, the East, South, West, and North representing the four elements, and then so on and so forth. So I kind of see these concepts as archetypal, and they each have their purpose behind them, and together they create a spirit court that I work with in my practice.
Kim: That is neat.
Marshall: Oh, thank you. (laughs) You know, it's very interesting because... I mention all this, and I actually mention this in my book too, because there's a whole section about invoking the Witch King and Queen. And I want people to understand, we are going through a time period where we are really focusing on general inclusivity. And in the occult, there is a long history of gender essentialism, or binary gender ideas. And one of the things that I really love about the concept of the witch king and queen are they are not just another version of the Wiccan Lord and Lady, or a God and a Goddess. This is my opinion, of course, because I don't think they represent gender as much as they represent, like I said, concepts of physical and non-physical. You can't have just one without the other, and then they represent the spectrum of everything in between. So, there are multiple times where I will mention, say, the man in black, or the folkloric devil, and I will use they, them pronouns, because it's really important to understand that they have no actual gender. And people who like to use gender within their practice, I think that is your practice. It's great. If you don't, then you don't have to. There is no reason to ever feel like to make magic work, or to make your practice valid, you have to include it, because you don't. And when it comes down to spirituality, you know, spirit I think transcends gender, but I think we as humans like to put a lot of human attributes on the spiritual world to help ourselves process it. And I think that's going to be processed differently by different practitioners.
Kim: That's actually one of the things that I was thinking about while you were talking is about the fact that I don't really, I don't put, I don't have masculine or feminine things in my practice.
Marshall: Right, yeah. And it's interesting because I don't personally see them as masculine or feminine, but I could see that because I might say he or she or king or queen, that they could be perceived as such. As I said, for me, they're archetypal figures. I think if they want to present themselves in different ways, I think they can present themselves as any gender, or no gender at all. So yeah, I think that explains my opinion on that.
Kim: How would you say witchcraft has changed your life?
Marshall: Oh, you know, witchcraft is something that came to me at a very young age and it was coming from a place where I felt very powerless. I was weird, I was different, I was queer before I knew that I was queer, and I didn't know how to process it. I was made fun of a lot. I didn't know how to find a place of empowerment until I found witchcraft. And it gave me a sense of control over my life a little bit more, or at least a sense of feeling like I have a purpose that I can put myself into that brings me a lot of joy. I love witchcraft. I think the concept of the iconography of the witch is just beautiful. It's fascinating. It's terrifying. I love being a part of it. I've always been obsessed with witches in stories and movies and tales. and I think that taking that mantle, that identity, has made me feel much more empowered in my life.
Kim: That made my heart squeeze a little bit. I felt that so hard.
Marshall: Oh, well, thank you. I'm sure you understand, and...
Kim: I lived that.
Marshall: Yeah, yes.
Kim: Yes. Ow, my heart. UGH! Okay, we're adults.
Marshall: Right, right. I know, I know. (both laugh)
Kim: What would you say is the biggest motivator in your practice?
Marshall: Again, I think it really comes down to my love for witchcraft, my love for creativity. I used to draw more when I was younger. I've picked up my illustrations and artwork now that I'm older again. And it's really funny because I think for a long period of time, a lot of us, especially millennials, we have had an idea pushed on us since we were very young. As times were changing and as I got to be an adult, I felt like I was very conditioned to understand that if my hobby was costing me money, or not making me money, it wasn't worth my time. And I think a lot of people identify with that, the idea that, "Well, I don't want to spend time and money on something that's just going to become a drain." But the thing is, is that thing would bring me joy. And so I gave up a lot of things that I think used to bring me joy. I used to love making jewelry. And I remember I started wearing some of my pieces and people would be like, "Oh my gosh, you should sell that." And I did for a little while and it got very draining because all of a sudden I got orders for things that I just didn't really want to make. And I took a step back from that. I did the same thing with wands for a while, when I first kind of got into the internet community. And when it comes down to it, I had to reorganize my brain to find joy in things that I enjoyed doing, where the joy itself was the benefit. And witchcraft is one of those things that I absolutely think brings me joy. I love making spells. I love making art. I love drawing sigils, and I love working with my garden. I loved writing my book. I loved creating the stories that are in there. So when it comes down to it, what motivates me is my actual love for the craft itself.
Kim: I love that.
Marshall: Well, thank you.
Kim: What brings you the most joy in your practice?
Marshall: I have to admit there is nothing as joyful as watching a spell happen in real time. (laughs) Like casting a spell, and then watching the steps play out that are leading to your ultimate outcome or desired goal, and then just like watching it happen in real time, it's pretty astonishing. I think many of us get into this sometimes with a lot of skepticism. I think being a skeptical witch is healthy. I think we should never be trying to reach for ideas and things that are absolutely irrational or out of out of sync with reality, if you will. I think that's where it can take us to sometimes a little bit more of a dangerous or fantastical territory. But to watch myself cast a spell and then see it happen in real time in front of me... Ah, chef's kiss.
Kim: Like watching those videos of flowers unfurl?
Marshall: Exactly. Mm-hmm.
Kim: Mm-hmm. Satisfying.
Marshall: It truly is.
Kim: What would you say is your biggest struggle when it comes to witchcraft?
Marshall: You know, my biggest struggle... So I think the struggle actually comes more from an outside imposed idea than it does from the inside. I am a creator on the internet. I am surrounded by a lot of people saying a lot of things. I think my struggle is sometimes feeling like I don't always fit the idea or concept of what a pagan should be. Like, I am not someone that celebrates the traditional eight-spoke Wiccan Wheel of the Year. I am also a solitary witch, so I don't have any other coven members that I, you know, do Sabbats with. So I have my own sort of celebrations. I have my own Wheel of the Year. I have certain things that are holidays that exist not because they are on some perfect eight-spoked breakdown of season, but because they are the wheel of my year. They are the holidays that I have always celebrated, and show me that the world is still turning with the passage of time. So like for me, like when the cicadas start singing, that is a time period that I recognize as something to celebrate, to experience the passing of time into the next season. When the first bloom on the crepe myrtle tree outside my house, Texas in the South is huge with crepe myrtles, and when those start to bloom again and push off their old dry husks, I know spring is around the corner. So I struggle with feeling like I need to conform to what the typical quote-unquote pagan is supposed to be doing. And I don't struggle that hard because I just don't do it. (both laugh) And that's okay.
Kim: I like that Tempest's book came out and sort of gave everybody permission to do it that way. I mean, I do it that way, too.
Marshall: Oh my gosh...
Kim: To do it our way.
Marshall: Absolutely. Temp's book was instrumental in me grabbing the reins of my own wheel of the year.
Kim: Temperence, not Tempest.
Marshall: Oh, yes. Sorry.
Kim: I said her name wrong.
Marshall: I've done it myself. It's just fine. We'll cut it out.
Kim: (both laugh) Anyway, I love it because that's how I do it, too.
Marshall: Exactly.
Kim: What is something you did early on in your practice that you don't do anymore, and why don't you?
Marshall: Mmm, mmm, okay. (takes deep breath) You know, I think... So here's an actually really interesting one. And this is one that I think might confuse a lot of people when they start reading my book. Because if you are very used to certain aspects of historical occultism, and Wicca, as whether- or witchcraft that may have been influenced by Wicca. I work with the four elements in my practice, aligned with the four directions, the four cardinal directions. But what's very interesting is, in my practice, I get a little bit more literal with it. So one of the things that I used to do years ago is, you know, east is fire, no sorry, east is air, south is fire, west is water, north is earth, and that actually comes from some older occultism that was part of, I believe, Golden Dawn and certain orders, and it influenced Wicca into these very specific cardinal directions with their aligned elements. But I work with traditional witchcraft, which follows a slightly more physical cardinal direction association. So, for me, the East is now fire, because it's associated with the rising sun. The South is earth, because it's literally beneath our feet. West is water because actually I think to almost every continent there is water to the west, except for I think just one of them. But so for me west is water, which still is the same, and north is air because it's above me and I work with, and it represents the spirits of the air. So for me, the cardinal directions are a big change from what I used to do when I was much younger and more influenced by 90s Wicca.
Kim: I noticed something when you were speaking earlier, you say east first.
Marshall: Yes.
Kim: That's neat. I always learned north first, if you're saying them all.
Marshall: And you know, I think it just kind of flows off the tongue since we were little, you know, never eat soggy waffles, northeast, southwest. But...
Kim: I did not learn that. (laughs)
Marshall: Yeah, that was a little acronym we used to do to remember them. You know, you see all those little acronyms to remember, like, the states and the planets and the directions. But I do East, South, West, North because that is the direction I start with. It starts with the rising sun. It starts with defense. It starts with the power of solar beginnings, and then it moves from fire down to earth, and then earth to water, and then water to the air. I think that's just my practice and how I've associated with under my court system, yeah.
Kim: This is hurting my brain. Now I'm going to have to rearrange everything in my life. And my beliefs.
Marshall: And a lot of people will not identify with that, and that's totally okay, especially if you've built an entire practice around a more Wiccan-based elemental lineup. And you can change it to that, you can change it to mine. I believe, this might be an opinion, but from what I know about the history of traditional witchcraft, Robert Cochran broke off, he and Gerald Gardner did not get along. They knew each other, they were running the same circles, they did not get along during the time period of the development of Wicca before it was called Wicca in the 1940s, and they kind of broke off from each other and created two different branches. One ended up kind of funneling directly into traditional witchcraft, and Gerald Gardner funneled directly into Wicca. And they disagreed very fundamentally on very specific things. And I think this is very possible that this is just one of them, and it has worked its way into modern-day traditional witchcraft, and Wicca has influenced other directions and versions of Wicca, eclectic Wicca, and then just eclectic witchcraft, which has been inspired by the same source material. So I don't think either way are wrong, but it's interesting to know that the creators, or not creators, the trailblazers of these thoughts came to this place of thought from an absolute disagreement or clash of ideas.
Kim: For myself, I was not saying, hey, I'm going to adopt this. I'm going to adopt this new thing that you're telling me. I meant that I'm going to re-look at what they are for me. I've done it with all sorts of other things. Why would I not do it with this?
Marshall: Why not? It's always a good idea to take a moment and re-examine. Whether or not it changes, or just helps you be reassured. Examining is always a good thing.
Kim: Like I have the giant brown book of correspondences, but a lot of stuff around me isn't in that.
Marshall: Right, exactly. Oh my gosh.
Kim: And some of it doesn't make sense. I just I don't remember what I was listening to. It was something about lithium is in... what is that purple stone?
Marshall: (gasps) Was it Dabbler's Guide to Witchcraft, by Don Martin?
Kim: Yes! I wasn't listening. I had just finished reading it because I want to talk to him later.
Marshall: Yes. I thought that was actually a brilliant chapter.
Kim: Yeah, that exact thing. And so, yeah, I've – it's not new that I'm relooking at things, but I'm feeling more confident about doing so.
Marshall: That's wonderful.
Kim: To find my own personal correspondences. Do you have a favorite tool in your practice? And it does not have to be a physical object.
Marshall: Oh. Yes, and it is a physical object. So that's okay. I really like my beads. I have created a set of witch's beads that are used for chanting, incantations, and connecting with my spirit court. I think that's one of my favorite tools that I've made outside of my stang. The stang was a really fun one, but I use the beads more. And there will be a...
Kim: Are they rosary-esque?
Marshall: Yes, very rosary-esque. I have a whole chapter in my book that will cover using and chanting with with your own set of beads as well as how to make your own set if you should choose to get a little crafty with it.
Kim: I'm interested in that.
Marshall: Oh, yes.
Kim: I... oh, I like that. Because I like touching things sometimes. Oh, okay. Yay. Yay. Yay. Okay. Yay. (both laugh)
Marshall: The stang was really fascinating because, you know, I love my stang, but again, I don't use it quite as much because I live in the city. I'm not taking it out into the woods with me a whole lot, but I made it. I found it. It's privet wood. It was cut down, I think, from just one of my neighbors who happened to be pruning and I saw it, it just was the perfect shape, this long staff with a forked end. And it's really cool because I want to say two-thirds of the bottom third has this slight delineation or bend that reminds me of the shape of goat legs, the way that they kind of slightly bend backwards.
Kim: Ooh, I was wondering if you would say that. That's cool!
Marshall: Yes, it literally looks like the type of the way that a gazelle or deer's or goat's legs would bend backwards. If I could fly on it, it'd be the perfect seat.
Kim: (whispers) You can fly on it.
Marshall: Well, you know. (both laugh)
Kim: Okay, this question I think is going to be interesting to ask you. So, how has environment shaped your practice and how do you think your practice would be different if you lived, say, here in the desert or in New England?
Marshall: Oh, wow. Yeah. You know, I live in Texas, so a huge portion of the year is hot. My garden has a very specific lifespan that I've had to understand and get to know. So I have to focus on when things need to be harvested, what plants grow here, what plants don't grow here. You know, a lot of books that initially came out would basically all be herbs and plant sources that usually are native to England, specifically England, not even Europe, but England. So for me in Texas, trying to grow mandrake and belladonna is just absolutely bonkers. It's just not happening very well. And so I have learned there are a lot of things that are recommended in a lot of these books that come from English sources, and English is in British sources. I'm not going to have access to a lot of, not a lot of these, but some of these that just don't grow here. So I have been really interested in figuring out, and foraging, within no more than a 15 minute radius from my home. There's a couple of wonderful trails, you know, a huge portion of the things that I work with could be considered weeds. And then everything else I try to grow. There are only a few things that I feel I need to purchase from certain places, and I try to do so at my local metaphysical store, because they have a lot of great herbs. But I've gotten very, very much into working with certain plants that are just more local. So I love working with Datura. I love working with, I think, dandelions are just about everywhere. But I love working with dandelions. I love working with...
Kim: (sadly) They're not here. Not in my yard.
Marshall: Oh, well, never mind. There we go. I love working with shepherd's purse for healing. I love working with...
Kim: Do you have mesquite near you?
Marshall: You know, we might, but I have not worked with it, actually. I use oak as a wood a lot. Oak, willow, and sometimes sycamore. The bark from sycamore is great because it peels off and you can burn it and you can write things on it.
Kim: I like to hug sycamores. Man, I miss trees so much!
Marshall: Yeah. Now, if I were in the desert, you know, it'd be very interesting. I have a section in my book that goes into the magic of dirt and soil. And I think if I were in a place that was less vegetative and more sandy, soily, rocky, I would be focusing a lot more on the power sources of the location of those rocks, the location of those dirts. If I needed to work money magic, I might collect dirt or sand or whatever the sediment is from a bank. If I wanted to do healing magic, I might collect it from a hospital. If I wanted to work just general magic or possibly even a baneful magic, manipulative magic, I might get it from a crossroads, necromantic rites from a graveyard. Getting involved with the land down to its literal dirt is something that we as witches all have access to. But sometimes when we have more vegetative opportunities, we lean towards those first. If those aren't an option, then I'm going to get right down into the dirt.
Kim: Holy crap. That just made me have so many ideas. But also, come visit me. Come to the Gem Show. Come visit Tucson. Come experience the desert.
Marshall: Oh, Arizona. I do want to visit Arizona sometime. Tucson... Go to a couple of other places that I know my family has visited and told me told me about.
Kim: Yes, come meet my Saguaro, and touch her, and tell her hello. How do you pull yourself out of a magical slump?
Marshall: You know, I think that's a really interesting question. And I get I do get asked that sometimes. And I think... I feel like the answer is a little twofold. One, I have written a prayer. I use the word prayer loosely. But I have written a prayer that I say every single day. I try to light incense with it as an offering, but if I am just not in the headspace to, then I will say this offering of prayer instead of just lighting the incense when saying the word offering in the prayer. But I make sure that I do it every day. No matter what I do, I can say that anywhere, no matter what, at least every day. So it's this connection that I am maintaining, an offering of reverence and veneration and honoring and staying in touch with my spirit court every single day. If I do nothing all month long except for that, I still have a maintained connection. I am not someone that is slinging spells on a regular basis, because I am always a mundane before magic person, or a mundane with magic. But I never just count, I'm not someone that just, I'm not a service magician, so I'm not doing a lot of work for other people. I lean on magic when I feel like it's necessary. So again, I'm not someone that's slinging spells all the time. But when it comes to a slump, it's hard for, I want to be really honest, it's hard for me to identify with the idea because I made a commitment to say this one thing, no matter what I do, for reverence every day. So it's hard for me to identify with the concept of a slump because I do that. If I wasn't doing that, I would think, "Oh my God, my whole practice feels like it's a slump!" Because I wouldn't be doing anything at all. And I think sometimes when you feel like you're in a slump, people think "I've got to do something, I've got to do something!" And actually, you don't have to do anything. Except for take a step back and remember when you own the identity of a witch, you're staying connected with the spirits you're working with at all times. What's the first thing you could do to reestablish a connection with them? And it might be just to say, "Hey, I want you to know I haven't forgotten you. Let me light this candle. I'm going to light this incense and just send out a thanks." And whether that be like a universal thanks or a thanks to your, the spirits of your home, go to a crossroads and maybe sprinkle an offering of some kind, maybe some water or some wine, or offering a bit of your hair to kind of re-commit to the powers that be at the crossroads. Sometimes it feels like you've gone so long you have to do something big, and I say, start small. Light some incense. Thank your home for the shelter it gives you over your head, and then branch off from there.
Kim: That just made me have a random question.
Marshall: Sure, go for it.
Kim: What are your thoughts on using things like hair and toenails and saliva, and whatever else?
Marshall: Love it. Visceral. I am a big contract person, so a lot of times I can see myself working with spirits where the idea is, I give a little bit of you, and you give a little bit of you back. I'm sorry, I give a little bit of me and you give me a little bit of you. So when a spirit is working something for me, a lot of times it comes down to type of spirit contract. I think I wrote about this on my blog recently about spirit contracts, and the understanding that many of us are, say... imagine you have a spell candle. You got some herbs on there, you got some incense going, and a lot of us are so stuck in this, the rigidity of, I've got to have, you know, my four elements, I've got to have my statue, I've got to have my drawing a circle, I've got to have all these things. And because I'm an animist, because I work with the idea of venerating and working with spirits, I see my spellcraft slightly more in a contractual manner. So I'm lighting incense as an offering to the spirits, as an enticement, like, ooh, this smells good, this is an offering to you, this is for your reverence, it's a thank you for doing this for me. And I'm working with the spirits that are in the herbs coating my candle. I'm working with the element of fire to make it burn. I'm calling in spirits to aid me in this, and I do a regular offering with them once a month of giving a piece of myself. And in turn, they give back to me when I call them. So I don't necessarily see a lot of these ceremonial things as steps in casting a spell or doing a ritual, I see them as contractually bartering. So there are many times where I am out foraging and I will take down the bun on my head and I'll pull a little bit of loose hair out. And when I take a few dandelions, I'll leave a strand or two of hair. If I want to make an offering, I might... There are certain things that I do that involve using a sterile diabetic finger stick, and offering of blood to the spirit.
Kim: Oh no. That hurts! I hate those things so much. I'm sorry. I just...
Marshall: That's okay.
Kim: I was in phlebotomy class at one point and oh, yeah, I hate those things very much. So I'm sorry. I don't have to tell you about my trauma.
Marshall: That's okay. I don't have to do it very often. I don't want to get too detailed, but I think depending on what you're offering, I think that's a very fair contract...
Kim: Oh I agree.
Marshall: ... especially if you're asking or are doing a working that involves spirits doing something that is on a larger scale for you. And I think if you are making regular offerings without, not necessarily blood, but just making regular offerings of reverence and keeping that working relationship open. When you turn around and ask for something, it's given. You give a little bit every day. I give a little bit every day with my incense, and my prayer, and my once a month offerings that I do for my spirit court. And when I turn around and ask for help, it's given because I have already put down, I hate to say it's contractual all the time, but, and sounds like a down payment, but I have given the down payment for what I'm asking for in return. So, using spit, I think, oh my gosh, I think a witch's spit is so powerful. I think you can spit in and on things to give them a sense of activation. I think spitting on sigils is a great way to activate them, and then pop them in your pocket and carry them with you. I think casting a curse on someone visually by spitting in their direction and saying a few choice words. I think going to a crossroads and spitting at the four directions and calling forth spirits to come forth. You're giving them a little bit of yourself. Please come and help me and bring me aid. I absolutely am a big believer in trading a piece of you for a piece of the spirit.
Kim: I use breath a lot. I don't know if that... For me, it counts.
Marshall: It does.
Kim: That's what I use.
Marshall: I call it the three breaths of life. Three is a magical number, so I do three breaths, and breath carries with it all the elements. It carries heat for fire. It carries wetness for water. It carries, literally, breath, air. And the carbon from your body is earth. So it carries all the elements. It is literally life giving.
Kim: Oh, I'm... look what a fun conversation this is.
Marshall: Oh, yes, I love it.
Kim: Is there anything you wish was discussed more in the witch community? Or do you think we talk enough?
Marshall: Oh, absolutely. I think there are so many things I wish was more discussed. I am angry that Twitter and TikTokave the opportunity to share a lot of wonderful, nuanced information. But people outrage farm on these communities within these communities, so much, by doing very much we were talking about earlier with picking apart syntax, and individual definitions of a word, versus actually discussing the meanings of the statements we say. I find these absolutely ridiculous witchtok wars to be pedantic and dumb and such a waste of time. With a lot of the things that I think go back and forth. It's, I hate even wasting time talking about Witchtok wars, they're so silly.
But don't get me wrong, I still love a good hot take. Just so we're clear, I still love a good hot take. But I think we miss a lot of the nuance in the online spaces because, because, you know, with Twitter, we get like, what, 180 characters, and then you feel like, okay, well now I have to make a whole text thread, and then someone takes one of those devoid of any other context and turns it into a quote that they then get to platform on their page to try to farm outrage, and use you as an example. I always know when someone has a disagreement with me. If they comment, I know they're interested in discussing it. If they quote without actually commenting, then I know they're not interested in discussion. They're interested in making an example of me. I think that sucks. I think there's no room for humanism. And I think there's no room for people recognizing that the more we talk, the more we can see each other's perspectives.
And again, I'm not talking about the rights for certain peoples to exist. That's, just so that's clear. (laughs) We're talking about actual real, you know, differences of opinions about craft-based things. And lastly, I think the one thing that is really under discussed the most, which is one of the reasons why I wrote my my book the way I did, is narrative witchcraft. I love the power of story, and storytelling, and I feel like there is very little material out there that gets into witchcraft that comes from a story. And that witchcraft and charms that tell stories. There's this, I'm sure I've said this before, there's this old English charm to help someone, heal someone who has a burn. And of course, you know, it was from local cunning folk at the time. So a lot of them were Christian based, and it was something like, three angels came from the east. One brought fire, two brought frost. Out fire, in frost, in frost, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, amen, amen, amen.
And this little tiny charm tells a story about literally three celestial beings coming with power, one with fire, two with frost. The tale gives you a ratio of one fire for two frosts. That frost is obviously going to overpower the fire the same way that these celestial deities and power would overpower the fire on your skin. And then it gives you a type of power, celestial source that it's coming from, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, amen amen amen. And I think that's such an amazing tiny little story in the form of a charm. I wish there was more of that in modernity. I wish I saw more of these bits of historiola that inspire this type of magic. So a huge portion of my book is all narrative magic. It's spells and rites pulled directly from stories that I have written, and works with spirits that are written into these stories. So I'm really excited for it to come out next week.
Kim: Me too! Please list three of the biggest influences on your practice.
Marshall: I think the biggest three biggest influences on my current practice, I would say, are definitely Gemma Gary, probably Kelden. They're all authors, of course. Are you thinking authors or something else?
Kim: Whatever. It doesn't even have to be people.
Marshall: OK, so I would if that's the case, I would take a step back and I would probably say Gemma Gary, mostly because all of her books, and Troy books, has been a massive influence on my practice. I would say Texas, because that is the land that I work with on a regular basis. I have a long history of having a love-hate relationship with Texas, because honestly the politics of the state that I live in is horrendous, but the land that I live on says so much more than the handful of people trying to control it in the capital. So, like I said, it's been cyclical, falling back in love with my state and my home. And then third and lastly, I would have to say... Hmmm. I know it sounds kind of like a cop out, but a lot of the community. Getting involved in the online witch community was something I never had when I got into it when I was very young. The closest thing we had was the catalog at the back of the Llewellyn book that I was reading, to order more Llewellyn books. Maybe, if you had access to the internet at the time, Witch Vox, which I,
Kim: Oh yeah!
Marshall: Witch Vox was huge, but nothing compares to what it is today. So having the community space to share freely without the fear behind it is absolutely not only influential, but I think it's influential on all of us because we are sharing more than we've ever shared with each other before.
Kim: I actually really miss WitchVox.
Marshall: I do too. I do too.
Kim: What would you tell somebody, what would you tell a beginner, a new witch? Like, what book would you suggest, if you could only recommend one?
Marshall: At this point in time, if I could only recommend one book to start with, I'd probably say it was Frankie's Chaotic Witch Aunt's Spells for Change. I think it's a really, really great, very generalized starting point. And I think it has the opportunity to inspire a lot of different directions you might want to go. I've gotten to know Frankie over the years and I think they're great. I think that they did a very good job writing something that can speak to truly all ages, and beginning to start from a place of a good set of information, if you will. I think that would be a book I'd recommend. But the advice, one thing that I want to say to all new practitioners is: It is a journey, not a race. There is no end to get to. And nothing is as concrete as you think it needs to be when you first start.
Kim: I do love concrete black and white things. I love that.
Marshall: I do too. And as humans, we all do. We like categories, we like titles, we like labels, we like being able to neatly understand things. And witchcraft is just one of those things that as much as you try to categorize it,
Kim: You ain't getting that.
Marshall: Yeah, you're not getting that. And that's okay. And the longer you do it, the more you understand that.
Kim: Who do you think would be fun to hear answer these questions? Or interesting, but I like fun.
Marshall: Like someone you could actually go and interview? Or...
Kim: Yes.
Marshall: Okay. You know, I would actually love to hear these questions answered by Austin, I think he's going to say some things that are going to make some people balk, and I can't wait to hear it. (laughs)
Kim: Uh... yeah. (laughs)
Marshall: Yeah. I would say that, and I would say I have a fondness for Jason Miller . I think his writing and the contribution that he has made to the witchcraft community with his information and his classes is so monumental. He is someone that doesn't just study a type of practice and then write about it, he immerses himself in it. He didn't just learn about Tibetan Tantra, he went to Tibet and lived there and experienced it. He didn't just learn about Hecate, he immersed himself into a lifestyle and built something with it. I think a lot of his expertise comes from absolute real-life immersive experience. And I have seen so many publications where you have a single author, and they seem to just sort of hop from subject matter to subject matter to subject matter. And in my opinion, I think they are more likely to remove cultural context from what they're writing about, to just get the information out there. And I would prefer to have someone who is, has the lived experience. So I think I got off track, but I take Jason Miller was what I meant to say. And Austin.
Kim: I'm kind of afraid to approach Jason Miller.
Marshall: Oh, yeah, I want I want to get them on my podcast, too. But I'm like, I feel like I need to be bigger for him to get, you know, we'll see.
Kim: Whatever I'm gonna ask. I'm gonna do it. All they're gonna say is yes or no.
Marshall: Right? Whatever.
Kim: So I'm gonna do it.
Marshall: Do it.
Kim: Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about that I didn't ask or did you have any questions for me?
Marshall: Let's see... Yes. I am really really excited for my book coming out. That's probably the one thing that has been on my mind for the past... not the one things that I've passed year but leading up to this this past year has been all-encompassing. Slowly coming together and writing this and then putting these tales together. It's a really fun book. It's broken into three parts. Part one is cunning tales, which will teach and expose the reader to spirits that are teaching the magic within these stories. And then part two is cunning rhymes. So, they are poems or recipes in poetic form, teaching you how to work certain bits of magic or mix certain magical ingredients and whatnot. And then lastly is the Cunning Compendium, Part Three, and that is a collection of grimoires, spells, rites, extrapolated from these stories, and expanded upon. So say there's a story in the first part called Our Mother in Red, and in the back there will be the Red Book. And within the Red Book is all the magic that the Mother in Red has either done within the stories, or would do based off of the spirit that she is. So that's just one example of what you might find in that book. And I'm really excited for it to come out. I think that there's nothing exactly like it on the market today that I know of. I have seen more books come out recently that are tapping into the magic and folklore of storytelling, and I am really excited about that.
Kim: And you can get different versions, right?
Marshall: Yes, I'm making several different versions mostly because a lot of the art that I have originally created is in color and I'm self-publishing through Amazon and I want to make sure that it is absolutely economical for everyone. And unfortunately for to do the color paper in a book of this size, I could not have the book be cheaper than $28 and still make any profit. So I did a miniature black and white version that has removed some of the excessive illustrations, while leaving some, leaving a lot of the necessary ones behind. That'll be a much more economical price. There'll be e-books. There'll be a black and white limited art book. There'll be a standard paper color paperback and then a special hardcover edition. And I think that's really fun. I think it'll be really interesting say 10, 20, 30 years from now when all of these different versions of the same book are kind of littered throughout the world and they might show up in different places and maybe there'll be collector's editions, who knows.
Kim: I know my friends who like books, are really into books, I know what they're gonna want.
Marshall: And you know what? I have had some people who like, I want a black and white version so I can carry with me to read and fit in my purse, but I also want a hardcover edition because I really want the shiny hardcover.
Kim: And to touch things, I just like touching stuff.
Marshall: I do too, I have the hardcover here next to me and I just like holding it.
Kim: Yay. So at the end, I have two things that you might consider a demand or it could be a question. Please recommend something to the listeners. Anything, it doesn't have to be witch related at all.
Marshall: Okay.
Kim: Just something that you're into right now.
Marshall: I really, really want to recommend to our listeners that you look into, like if you're a film buff like me, I love movies, start looking into foreign films. I promise you, when you look outside American or English speaking movies, you will start seeing some of the most monumental, breathtaking, stop-you-in-your-tracks films, especially if you love things within the occult or witchy variety. I love 1970s occult films. I like... a lot of these movies, especially within horror, that honestly in America they are so censored, and there are so many rules. And when you watch a Japanese horror, when you watch a French horror, I promise you, it is going to absolutely change your perspective on what is possible and capable within the genre. One of my favorite, one of my absolute favorite witch movies of all times is Viy. It's V I Y, and it's actually a Russian film. It was the first Soviet horror ever documented, from what I understand. And it was a really, really cool story that was inspired by an old folk tale in Russia. And it's actually been dubbed, so you can watch it in English if you want. But the first time I ever saw it, it was in Russian. And I just remember watching this old folk tale and being like, there is nothing in America like this. This is so cool.
Kim: I can't do horror because I have enough anxiety in my life. But I watched the Japanese version of The Ring.
Marshall: Oh, yeah.
Kim: That was... do not recommend unless you like being terrified.
Marshall: Yes, Japanese horror is horrific on a whole nother level. They have no problem. They will censor a penis, but they will not censor eating children. Straight up.
Kim: I did not like it. And also the idea, it was sent to the, I watched it on a VHS tape.
Marshall: And you know, it's fascinating because when it came to the original. You know, I watched the Ring when it came out here in the US in theaters like everyone else did.
Kim: I have not.
Marshall: I watched that first. And when I saw that, I was like, I've got to see the original now. And I have to admit, the original actually made more sense to the story, than the American version did. The American version, it had its own unique prose, but I think the original actually, I think its story to me actually made more sense as to why this little ghost girl is existing the way she is, but I loved it. If you like horror.
Kim: Lastly, can you please tell me a story that you love to tell? Something that you would tell around a campfire or at a family family reunion in the backyard. I would like it to be something that happened to you. But it doesn't have to be. But just tell me a story, please.
Marshall: Hmm. Like, an actual like an experience I had, does it need to be mystical or just sort of any story at all?
Kim: Nope, just anything. Like something, like literally a family reunion story where everybody's like, hey, remember when Jimmy did that dumb thing and fell down the mountain and broke his leg?
Marshall: Okay, okay, gotcha. So my grandpa, that's my dad's dad, the one that I said was jackass earlier. He passed away, yeah, he really was. I'm not going to say he was a good guy. His favorite thing in the world was to argue with you, and it wasn't about him winning, it was about making sure you lost. So, that was the grandpa I grew up with, and when he died, we had a great time at his funeral. And we rented some cabins out in Utopia, Texas is in Bandera County. That's like the mid-Texas mountain hill country area. And I rented some cabins that weren't too far away from the burial plot. And it was actually a great little family reunion. My family had a cabin, my aunt had a cabin, my uncle had a cabin, and we all would get together. We were there for two days on a long weekend. We would get together and, you know, we'd just hang out on the patio, eating and drinking all day and all night. It was, it was a really fun experience.
And after the funeral, we went to the bank to close out my grandpa's safety deposit box. And inside of it were a bunch of things. Some ancient Chinese coins, some arrowheads, and some semi-precious stones. And we went back to the cabin, we decided to divvy up the semi-precious stones and there was some emeralds, some rubies, there was a alexandrite, and I think something else. I ended up getting the alexandrite. If you've ever seen one, it's this gorgeous bluish purple semi-precious stone. My sister, I think, got the little rubies and my aunt got the little emeralds.
And my mom, you know, she knew a jeweler in this town that I grew up with, so she was going to take it to him, have it appraised, and decide what I want to do with it. Because it was just a loose stone. I could put it in a pendant setting, I could make a cocktail ring, and it was a big stone. So I was like, oh, I'm gay as fuck. I really, really want a cocktail ring. That ring would have been awesome too. Anyway, so my mom calls me up, so she goes up to the jeweler and she and she hands it to him. He looks at under his little like, you know, his little monacle, or little thing that he's looking close with and he goes, Kimberly, that's her mom's name, "Kimberly, an alexandrite this size and clarity would run you at about $120,000." And my mom's like, (gasps) "Oh my gosh!" And then he finishes, "... if it were real."
Kim: Oh, my... ugh.
Marshall: Mm-hmm and she's like, "What do you mean?" he goes "It's paste. It's fake. It's just a fake stone." So my mom decided to call up my aunt, because she had the rubies with her, that my sister got. So my mom was like "What about these?" Fake. She called up my aunt. She had them appraised, they were fake. The Chinese collector's coins were fake. The only thing that was real were the arrowheads and they weren't really worth, I mean, they were arrowheads that were passed down, I don't know, from... I don't know actually the history now that I'm thinking about it, I just know that that's what was in the safe deposit box. They were the only things that were real. And to this day, I think that stone is sitting in a small container, just reflecting pretty much nothing. And it was funny, it even came with a list of where he bought them, how much he paid for them at the time. And to this day, I kind of wonder, was that, was he taken advantage, because he didn't pay a whole lot for them, but was he getting taken advantage of at that time? Or was that his last joke on us?
Kim: I was thinking that.
Marshall: I'm not sure, but you know what, I'm going to go with that. (whispers) Jackass. He was. He pretended to fall asleep when he was driving me as a child to watch me freak out. The memories we keep forever.
Kim: Well, thank you very much for talking to me and being on the show.
Marshall: Oh, this was wonderful. It was a great. It was a great chat.
Kim: Yay. And everybody make sure you go buy the book when it comes out. It should be out by the time this show comes out.
Marshall: Wonderful. On Amazon. Cunning Words, a Grimoire of Tales and Magic by Marshall WSL.
Kim: And I will see you on the Internet. Bye.
Marshall: Bye.
Kim: So, Marshall, welcome to Patreon.
Marshall: Oh, fun. (fades out)
Marshall: (fades in) I've experienced it. I have done a lot of things that I have not regretted, but didn't necessarily set out or want to do. And I'm very glad I have the opportunity to say it. (fades out)
Kim: To hear more of the Patreon episode, head over to patreon.com/cleverkimscurios for a free seven-day trial. The Monthly Magic tier will give you access to the Monthly Magic Marco Polo group, the private Patreon Facebook group, access to the written monthly spells, and more. There are also tiers with just digital content, or you can get spell boxes, intentional handcrafted jewelry that I make especially for witches, and there's even a crystal tier. Check it out at patreon.com/cleverkimscurios. Thanks for listening to this episode of Your Average Witch. You can find us all around the internet on Instagram at Your Average Witch Podcast, Facebook at facebook.com/groups/HiveHouse, at YourAverageWitch.com and at your favorite podcast service. Want to help the podcast grow? Leave a review. You can review us on Amazon and Apple podcasts, and now you can rate us on Spotify. If you'd like to recommend someone for the podcast, like to be on it yourself, or if you'd like to advertise on the podcast, send an email to youraveragewitchpodcast at gmail.com. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next Tuesday.