Hollie of

the Institute for Self Crafting.

Horse magic and ninja school

In this episode I talk to Hollie of the Self Crafted Life. Hollie talks to us about growing up witchy, the magic of horses, and a little about ninja school.

Book - 

https://www.instituteforselfcrafting.com/blog/rhythm-of-life 

Socials - @hollie.bakerboljkovac 

Photo -

https://www.dropbox.com/s/59bih2we63xttph/AK1_2562.jpg?dl=0 

Website - instituteforselfcrafting.com 

Self Crafted Life Portal - courses and content 

https://selfcraftedlife.mn.co/ 

Wise Women Gathering - wisewomengathering.com 

Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where every Tuesday we talk about witch life, witch stories and sometimes a little witchcraft. Your Average Witch is brought to you by Clever Kim's Curios. In this episode I talk to Hollie of The Self-Crafted Life. Hollie talks to us about growing up witchy, the magic of horses, and a little about ninja school. Yes, I said ninjas. Now let's get to the stories.

Kim: Hi Hollie, welcome to the show.

Hollie: Thanks, Kim.

Kim: Would you please introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and what you do and where they can find you? 

Hollie: Sure. So I'm Hollie Bakerboljkovac. I live in Australia on Wollbunja Yuin land, which is in the southeast of Australia. And I guess where they can find, what I do, I'm a counsellor and a coach is really my everyday work. But through that I do a lot of retreat work and circle work and ceremony and those sorts of things that I guess we'll talk about today. And you'll find me at instituteforselfcrafting.com where in between doing all those things I also have a little ninja school. And yeah, that's that's a good start. Let's see where we go from there.

Kim:  Did you say ninja school? 

Hollie: Yes.

Kim: What does that mean? What does that mean? 

Hollie: So a lot of my childhood life was in the dojo doing stand-up martial arts and I've since put together like my own little curriculum of martial arts and natural movement, movement style of natural movement. So that's everything from crawling, jumping, climbing, kind of obstacle course stuff, It's probably how people think of it. And so I put those two pieces together, and we have this little school where we just be ninjas.

Kim: Okay, that delights me. (both laugh)

Hollie: It's very fun. There's a lot of podcasts of me talking about that kind of work. And one thing I really like about it is just being able to work in a trauma-informed way with people's nervous system. 

Kim: Yes.

Hollie:  Just bringing in like, you know, the things that we didn't have growing up in martial arts because there was no such thing as trauma-informed anything in the 80s. So that's my area that I like to play around in. And I actually wrote my curriculum, this is interesting to I think the people we're talking to today, my curriculum's rank system follows like that Western mystic kind of system of the colourway is kind of like a rainbow. So usually in Eastern martial arts there's a colourway that's kind of yellow, green, brown sort of colours, but mine starts with red, goes through orange, yellow, green, all the way through to purple before we go to black belt. So, you know, I just had to add those little magical elements to my school.

Kim: Oh, I like that very much. I was going to say so, but I changed it. That's where the F came in. Oh, good. My dog has decided to join us through the wall. That's awesome.

Hollie: I'm sure I'll end up with my tyrant cat at some point today.

Kim: Do you call yourself a witch?

Hollie: Absolutely, yeah. I mean, not in my everyday bios as a counsellor and therapist, but you only have to scratch the surface. (both laugh)

Kim: I can't imagine.

Hollie: You scratch the surface of any of my work and it's there, yeah. In the 2000s, I had a witchcraft store in the capital city of Australia. So, I've always been around, like anyone who's known me long enough knows that that's there anyway. But obviously, in terms of professionalism, it's not my first word on my bio.

Kim: I hate professionalism. I used to get bad marks in school in the professionalism area. Thanks Jen! (laughs) What does it mean to you when you call yourself a witch?

Hollie: Yeah, you know, I think witches are renegades. Witches have always been the people who sit between the edges or live between the edges. So one word I use a bit in my work is rebel. And what that stands for is Renegade, Earthborn, Evulvolutionary Leader. And I think all of those elements are witchy, being the renegade, stepping outside of whatever is supposed to be the norm. And then the earthborn elements of just being here right now on the land that we're in or on, in relationship to, like in Australia we'd say in relationship to country, but meaning in relationship to land, sky, waters and all of the beings that are here. That's the earth-born bit. Evulvalutionary, I'm talking about like it's an evolution, it's like we are pushing the edges, moving the tribe forward sort of thing, but there's for me like my practice has always been very feminist based, so that's the vulva piece of it, right. And leaders, like again, if you live on the edge, you could stay on the edge forever and kind of be like the dingo that disappears into the shadows, or you can step in and lead from that edge and see where we take everybody. And that I think is a really important piece of witch. And so then it doesn't matter like what colour your witchcraft is, whether you follow a specific style or mythos or whatever, those elements are witchy, no matter what religion you're sitting in, no matter where you come from, that's what witches do and have always done. 

Kim: Do you have any family history with witchcraft, or were you raised in it at all, or do you have any stories from childhood where even if your family would never ever claim to be doing witchcraft, they're doing things that are awfully witchy?

Hollie: Well, my family just claimed that they were doing witchy things. I remember always being told like if we were born in the Middle Ages, we would all be burned at the stake. That was like a family meme. My mom's twin sister was a tarot reader and an astrologist. She gave me my first deck of tarot when I was about 12 or 13, a Crowley deck. And so that was just always around. We always saw ghosts. We all knew ghosts were a thing. We would see UFOs off our balcony, or what appeared to be UFOs. So we lived on the edge of a water system, and over the waters you could look out over the veranda and see these interesting stars that would fly up and down in straight lines and then zip along, and very UFO-y. So this stuff was just always in my world and I just thought that it never crossed my mind that it wasn't a thing and that obviously it was real. So it's not something that I've ever had to struggle with in terms of like, I know that a lot of people like their family are not accepting of any practices towards witchcraft or the occult, but it was just always there. So I was lucky in that way. And in my teens, my parents separated and my mum went through her sort of new age, 90s, middle age burst into the world. And so then I was surrounded by lots of witchy women, and I was sitting in their circles with these women as they were just doing all the 90s, new agey things that were on the scene then, you know, studying, say, Jamie Sands' Clan Mothers, or there was always Reiki workshops at our house, there were people channeling aliens in our house at one point, so it was just kind of always a thing.

Kim: This is just random curiosity about something that might be Australia specific.

Hollie: Yeah.

Kim: With the UFOs, okay, we have a specific place in the US where people are like, oh yeah, UFOs come here. It's area... oh god, is it 54?

Hollie: Yeah, yeah.

Kim: Whatever.

Hollie: Something like that, yeah.

Kim: Whatever it is, is in New Mexico. Roswell. Is there a place like that in Australia?

Hollie: I mean, there might be. I don't know of that.

Kim: Maybe you lived in it. (both laugh)

Hollie: Yeah, maybe I just lived in it. I'm sure there'd be people that could answer this better than I could. I'm not aware of it. In those days, that was like peak X-Files, right? And so we were all in, all the teenagers were into it.

Kim: The good old days.

Hollie: Yeah. So maybe I knew then, but I've sort of moved away from that world. I don't read UFO magazines or anything. I'm sure there could be, but I can't answer that, sorry.

Kim: Let's move into the present. And do you have any regular or consistent practices? anything that you do every day? Can you introduce us to your practice? 

Hollie: Yes, well, a lot of my practice is nature. And I think we'll come back to this over and over again today. Like nature and the seasons, I've always lived somewhere where there's really clear four seasons. So, you know, following what I would call the wheel or the map is just, it's so ingrained in my everyday. I actually created a, like a diary, like a yearly planner that is based on this idea of the rhythm, or what probably a lot of listeners would understand as like the wheel of the year, going through those seasonal points. But we can do that with every day. So, whereas through the year, there is the four seasons, and we know that in summer, things are more intense and bright, and there's more light and there's warmth. In winter, the opposite, it's dark and it's more, we want to feel more inward in ourselves, but actually every day has that. So, you know, at the peak middle of the day, that's the match for summer and at midnight, that's the match for winter. So we can journey each of those days in that way. And so I built a diary so that I could move through my everyday busy life, like all the things we have to do in everyday life, and still be within the rhythm that I know is really important, rather than a linear diary that just has like, you know, a line of dates and times, but doesn't connect to the wheel or the rhythm. So that's a big piece of my practice is just staying with the rhythm. I garden, I have a lot of animals, I live out on a big country acreage situation, bushland. So that, it's just, it's woven into everything we do because it has to be. We also live very off grid, so we don't have the privilege of like air conditioning through summer or, you know...

Kim: Really?!

Hollie: Or lots of heat in the winter. Like we feel the season as we are. So that really keeps me in the practice, too. Yeah.

Kim: What do you do? Do you just switch to waking up at 3 or something?

Hollie: (laughs) Yeah, it's not quite that far. It's usually around the 6 o'clock. 6am is a good time for getting up at all times of the year here. As we move now, we're in April now, we're starting to move into a much shorter day from here on in. By the time we get to June and July it feels like it's just the end of the world, but it's nothing compared to Norway or something. We have, I'd say, it's light from about 8am and then the sun starts to disappear at about 4pm, starts to get dark again. But in summer we have what Australia is famous for, these beautiful long days of warmth and swimming and all the great things. So I love that because we get to really journey with the season and if for people that would follow like, you know, that mythos of the way that the goddess and the god move through the season and give birth and come together in union, like you can see it in the land, you can feel it because the seasons are happening all around us all the time.

Kim: Which state did you say you're in?

Hollie: New South Wales. So if you look at a map of Australia, you've got on the right-hand side of the map, you've got the pointy bit at the top, that's Queensland. And then as you head down that edge, the right-hand edge, New South Wales is down sort of in the lower part of there. 

Kim: Okay.

Hollie: Yeah, not all the way at the bottom.

Kim: I knew for some reason, for some reason, I knew where Queensland was.

Hollie: Yeah, everyone knows Queensland. That's where all the photos come from. That's where all the beach bodies and the bikinis and the sunshine and the barrier reef is. You know, we're the lesser poor cousin down below.

Kim: Yeah, but that's where I wanted to visit is New South Wales. What a dumb thing for me to have fixed in my brain. Anyway, it's interesting.

Hollie: And Sydney is in New South Wales, so that's also obviously a well-known spot.

Kim: Yeah, but I want to go out in the boonies.

Hollie: Great! Well you're welcome, come on over!

Kim: I just kind of wondered if you were sort of in an environment like mine or not so much because I live in the desert in Arizona.

Hollie: Not desert, more like I think our climate and landscape might be more like something like the Pacific Northwest for you guys. So lots of trees, lots of rainfall and yeah, those really clear seasons.

Kim: Neat!

Hollie: Yeah, but within New South Wales you will also find desert, like Australia's amazing. Like most continents are, you know, you can get it all. 

Kim: How has witchcraft changed your life? 

Hollie: I think it's the permission to be the renegade that we talked about before because I dedicated myself to witchcraft when I was like 16, peak Craft era, right? And yeah, it's just always been the way and so with that way there's this, you know, everything I talked about, the Hedge Witch before of being on the edges and pushing those edges, I just think without that my life would have been very different. I don't know what it would have looked like, but I certainly wouldn't be where I am right now.

Kim: What would you say is your biggest motivator in your practice? 

Hollie: Nature. Nature, land-based everything, ancestral everything, but by ancestral I mean more like what did all the ancestors of all of us do before colonization and power and social whatever and economy mixed it all up. So I don't really worry too much about where my particular ancestors come from, mostly because it's a very messy storyline that's hard to track. My ancestors probably were convicts that came to Australia early on. But in terms of ancestors, I like to think about like, who were we all before we were taken out of, you know, what people had always been. So that really motivates all the things that I do. You know, what did humans do before we messed it up, oh well we lived with the seasons and we lived on the land and we paid attention to the light because we had to because we would have died if we didn't. And that's really a big piece of my craft. I had a chronic illness quite a few years ago that, you know, I was really sick for a really long time and the way that I dug myself out of that was by understanding nature and how my body relates to the natural world world in terms of light and cold and all those things. So you can't live without it. 

Kim: I wonder how many chronic illnesses are caused by our new way of living.

Hollie: Yes, I would say 100%. Yeah, 100% of, yes, just so many things that humans have not evolved to do or even adapted to do in such a short amount of time.

Kim: Would you say that your motivation has changed from when you first started out?

Hollie: I think it's just evolved with maturity. I remember the first time I read in Fiona Horne's book about this wheel of the year and the mythos that went with it, this story of a god and a goddess or a feminine and a masculine that travelled through the year and reflected what the seasons do. And that was so mind-blowing to me. I think I just attached to that in the moment and I've continued that, but it's continued to mature. I don't necessarily think so much about gods and goddesses as I do just about what is the land doing where I am right now and what's relevant to this place here and now. So I think we use a lot of interesting words. People can use a lot of interesting words in witchcraft that have no meaning anymore because they come out of old tradition and we don't, like they're not related to our land where we are right now in this culture, in this time, in this place. So I think that's where the maturity has changed and the motivations have been more around like trying to get in touch with here, now, as opposed to reading it in a book and then following it because that's what you're supposed to do if you're a witch.

Kim: I got super... that's like the opposite of rebel. I always get this little thrill in my chest whenever people say that when they describe what witch means to them, when they include rebelliousness, I love it so much because I hate being told what to do.

Hollie: Yeah. Well, I don't know that if you did like being told what to do a lot, and you wanted to stick to the rules and what everyone else was doing, then you probably wouldn't land in witchcraft on purpose, right? (both laugh) Maybe you'd just be in there naturally and be really uncomfortable, but I think it's not something that everyone seeks because not everybody wants to walk those edges.

Kim: I don't understand those people at all. (both laugh)

Hollie: Neither do I! (laughs) Yeah, they do speak another language to me. I don't know how to meet them.

Kim: Yep. Do you ever feel like you deal with imposter syndrome? And if you do, what do you do about it?

Hollie: I've had this conversation lots of times. I had a friend that was sort of starting a business and she was all about the imposter syndrome, And I was like, I don't think I have it. But maybe... and so then when I got your question, I thought I have to reflect on this a bit more. I think what I do is I educate myself, right? Whatever it's about I educate myself probably too much, or like like go all the way deep in over the top. I'm also a person who lives with autism, so if I like something I'm going to go deep into it and find out all the things. And I think that's almost like a protective factor to the imposter syndrome, because if I know all the things, then I can't not know the things, right? And I feel like, like in the reflection that I've had since I got your questions, I feel like that's something, that's probably a strategy that I developed as a young person to make sure that I did know the things. And so having sat with witchcraft now for so many years, I'll be surprised if I can find anything new that I haven't delved into. But yeah, I don't think about other people. And I don't think witchcraft is about other people, so it's not something that really comes up in terms of that impostoring. 

Kim: I like that. Well, what would you say your biggest struggle is when it comes to witchcraft?

Hollie: I'm not really up on the socials around witchcraft anymore. My daughter keeps telling me, "You should have a TikTok because you'd be really great as a TikTok witch or whatever!" But what I do see coming out of that is what I think is called baby witching, and probably what we used to call fluffy bunnies. And that, to me, is a struggle. Not because people shouldn't start somewhere. Absolutely, everyone starts somewhere. But what I find is a struggle is the trying instead of being. And it's always been an issue and it's something I've taught about and spoken about for years. We're not here about the tools. We're not here about the crystals and the correspondences and all the matchy, matchy stuff, but we're here to be a witch. And so I find it a struggle when I'm exposed to that stuff. In the end, I don't care. I mean, people can do whatever they want, but yeah, that's the area that I just kind of get a bit cringy and, you know, my hackles go up a little bit. (laughs) But that's the edge, right? And so maybe there's something in there that I haven't seen yet, and I'm open to that, because it's all about relationship and there's a bridge that we can make, we as in people maybe that have more maturity in the craft, there's a bridge that we're able to make for these baby witches that has possibility, and has a whole new area that we're all going to find together as we move forward into whatever the next generation of witchcraft is, right?

Kim: I do sort of scroll past the people who want a list of things they're supposed to get so they can be a witch.

Hollie: (laughs) Yeah.

Kim: I know somebody will answer them, it just doesn't have to be me.

Hollie:  And it's always been there. It's not like it's a new thing. I mean, it's just, we're just seeing it in a different way because of, you know, the way the internet works now. But that's always been there. And there's always been, you know, just look at the Scott Cunningham books from back in the day, like that's what they were doing. They were basically TikTok in a book. So it's not a new thing that happens. (both laugh) It's not a new thing that happens, but hopefully, you know, people can mature and just stay in connection because that's really what it's about.

Kim: What would you say brings you the most joy in your practice?

Hollie: Same answer again: nature! Just land connection, and communing, and communicating. I work with five horses, so that's a big piece of my everyday, you know, everyday in the rhythmness of working with them and that brings me a lot of joy. Animals and just our land is the most, has the most pristine water system on it. We have a huge water hole and we try to swim even through the colder months. So all those things are what brings me the joy because it just keeps me coming back. And then also like just honestly, sounds a bit cliche, but honestly just seeing the moon, which I would see every night because we live off-grid. We have to walk between buildings to do anything, so I'm outside at night time every single day and to be able to see the moon every day just brings me so much joy. She's always so beautiful.

Kim: Okay, I have swimming pond and horse envy. (Hollie laughs) I was actually looking at mini burros yesterday, because I would love to bring a pair of those.

Hollie: Yes!

Kim: We have no room. I am insane. We're not going to get burros, but man. We only have an acre, and I don't feel like that's enough, but gosh.

Hollie: Yeah, that might be pushing it. Yeah. (laughs)

Kim: Yeah. We're going to have goats eventually, and I will be satisfied with that. I WILL.

Hollie: We've just added goats to our household, like a couple of weeks ago.

Kim: Is it delightful?

Hollie:  Uh, no. It's not. 

Kim: Oh, good. (both laugh)

Hollie: It's very stressful. When I first told my, you know, like the local feed store, is that what you guys would call it? Like, you know, the store, the rural shop that I go to for my feed and stuff. And I said to him, I need some help with fencing because I'm getting goats. And he just looked at me and said, oh, gee, you're a glutton for punishment, aren't you? You're never going to continue. And yeah, that's where we're at. We've got one that just jumps the electric fence. She just doesn't care. I agree. She wipes it clean. So I'm like, okay, what is there to learn about this? I'm really trying to stay in relationship with her. But yeah, she's a challenge. She's brought a whole new challenge to my life that I didn't think could be beaten by horses, but she is there. And also, I'm wondering if I should change her name because she's named Thalia after the Percy Jackson books. My kids were deep into Percy Jackson books when they were kids. So for anyone that doesn't know that, they're modern youth fiction that are written with the idea of the gods, like the Greek gods, and so they've kind of modernised it. It's done very clever. And so Thalia is Zeus's daughter and she's got a real attitude, I guess. She's a bit cranky. So I'm thinking, and my friend did say that to me, do you really want to name a goat, Thalia? The other one is called Effie off the Hunger Games and she's really chill. So we're thinking Thalia might turn into someone else. We'll have to see how she goes. (laughs)

Kim: That reminds me of people who name their husky Loki.

Hollie: Yeah. Disaster.

Kim: Why are you trying to make your life hard?

Hollie: No. Never do that. Never do that. Yeah, absolutely. I'm so on purpose with my names. I thought Thalia was nice because she has that little bit of attitude but she's really quite grounded and throughout the book she actually turns into a nymph-y kind of wiser self. So I thought that'd be great, but I think we're still in the attitude phase and not the wise self phase. (laughs)

Kim: I wish you calmness to your goat. (laughs)

Hollie: Thank you, I appreciate it. (laughs)  They are also pregnant. I mean, they've arrived pregnant because I wanted milking goats. So, you know, maybe she's just having some time, emotional, hormonal time and I can be with that. I can be okay with that. (both laugh)

Kim: What would you say is your biggest fear in witchcraft? Do you have any?

Hollie: No, that was such an interesting question. I was like, oh, I don't even know how to formulate how somebody would answer that. But what I was thinking about was, like, it's all about, you know, what we said before, walking the edges of the fears. And so, for me, witchcraft and me are not separate. It's not like – I can see how people might be fearful of, say, if your family is against it or if you lived in a really religious area or something like that. I get that kind of – but in terms of fears of magic or fears in being witch and stepping into that work, no, that doesn't exist because that is the work, actually. Does that make sense?

Kim: Yeah. You want to know a secret about that question?

Hollie: Yes.

Kim: I have no idea where it came from or what I meant when I asked it. So it's a mystery every time.

Hollie: And did lots of people answer in a similar way that I just did?

Kim: No! It's been a different answer every time, I think. Well, a few people, because the US is so great, are like, well, I hope nobody comes to kill me because I'm a witch. I've gotten that a couple of times.

Hollie: Yeah. And that's what I, when I saw the question, I was like, yeah, I get that piece. But also it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't come across my mind that I should be worried about that yet. We'll see where the future goes. Yeah, no, it's a good question. Leave it in there. It makes you think, makes me reflect.

Kim: That and the grocery store question in the Patreon segment, I have no idea what I was thinking about. (both laugh)

Hollie: There is a few questions in there. I'm like, oh, that's a great question. Oh, that's such an unusual question. I mean, that's why I wanted to talk to you, because I love that you, yeah, I just love your questions. I think it's great. I think it's a great idea for a podcast and I love that everyone gets asked pretty much the same questions, so we all get to speak to ourselves. It's great.

Kim: Yay! Thank you, that's nice! That makes me feel good. What is something you did early on in your practice, and you don't do anymore?

Hollie: So I mentioned that I had a shop, so I did used to do spells for other people, like people who come in and do a consultation with me and we'd work through sort of what they needed to have. Sometimes I would put the spell together for them to do, and very, not very often, but sometimes I would also cast a spell for them. So that's not something I would do now. I mean, that was, you know, it's partly because of the economics of running a store and partly for, you know, there's something really unusual about being in that space where it's the people that walk in and not necessarily in the same zone as me, you know, because they're just coming in off the street and they're like, oh, what is this? Oh, this is fun. This would be interesting. So I wouldn't say it was always aligned, like as in the people and I were aligned. So I don't, I think that's the area that I don't do or don't want to do anymore. It's just like being around unaligned-ness in my craft. And so, so much of what I do is constant reviewing of like, are these the people that I want to have coming to my retreats? Are these the, is this the energy that I want to bring in? Who am I having in my online circles? Like making sure that the matches and the alignments are there because then it's easy, like there's flow. So I think that's the piece with that one.

Kim: That sounds like self-care, to me.

Hollie: Yeah, totally. Well and as a therapist it's the same, same, right? Like I can't, I'm very niched in who I see, because I just realise, we all come to this point at some time as therapists I think, that you realise that you can't serve everybody and the more that you niche in on the people that you do serve well, it becomes a lot easier. There's less possibility for burnout. And so in doing that, most of the people that I see are kind of witchy anyway. I don't advertise it, but they're all these kind of neurodivergent edge walkers in some way that come towards me and do the work with me.

Kim: I hope my next therapist is that. Two therapists ago I found it, but then she moved to a different job, a better job. So now I'm flapping. Well, actually, that's an insurance thing, which welcome to the US. But anyway, let's move on to something that is not sad. (laughs)

Hollie: Well, I mean, maybe that's the space for you in some spell work there, Kim, to send out some matchy matchy vibes and see who shows up.

Kim: Yeah. I have such a stack of those that I need to do. Our neighbour is getting ready to sell their house and... there's a whole thing.

Hollie: Oh, that would be so interesting. There's so much fun you could have with that, in bringing in...

Kim: I am going to start working once they actually list it.

Hollie: Yeah.

Kim: I mean I'm kind of doing it now, but... what would you say is your favorite tool in your practice, and why? It does not have to be a physical object.

Hollie: (laughs) What I sort of wrote down in my notes here is my garden hose and my poop scooper, because they're the things that keep me out on the land every day. And then next to that is my feet, right? Like just being able to be grounding on the earth. I'm a barefooter as well. So being grounded on the earth is my craft. Like that is, that's what guides and directs and holds all of the work. And so, yeah, it's, and, and, you know, the energy, the energy flow that comes through me into her and then from her back into me. Like that's the best tool I've got. The other pieces are just fluff. And my drum actually, I put my drum in there too.

Kim: What kind do you have?

Hollie: I've got two drums. I've got one that's in pieces at the moment. It's a horse skin drum. I had to pull it apart because a rat got to the straps on it.

Kim: Heathens...

Hollie: Ohhh, I was so unhappy! So that's still sitting there waiting for me to finish off again. But the drum that I use with people usually is an oval shaped, it's a vulva shaped deer skin drum. A deer skin drum. And it's painted up with henna and it's very beautiful. And it's got a really nice gentle tone. So that's what I usually use in groups because it's gentle. The horse drums are intense. They're a lot heavier and a lot, yeah, there's just a different power in them, I think. So it's not always good for groups or good for people when they're just beginning energy work.

Kim: I'm looking for a drum. I went to a retreat last year, there was drumming actually does it as part of therapy. And I'm just super interested in the meditative aspect that I can bring in. Plus I just like rhythm.

Hollie: If you can find someone that will let you make the drum. So like we do things here, like last year we had a retreat that was women who drum with horses and the women came. Yeah, it's pretty spectacular. The women come, they make their drum, so we have all the parts and they make the drum and we did some horse work in between. So there's a lot of like reflective, therapeutic kind of work going on in between it, and the horses kind of give us the messages and the information that we need, right, as we're going through that creative process of making the drum. But you don't need horses to do that. But the sacredness of making your own drum is, you know, again, very ancestral. And I liked one of the things we've done in our sort of, I've got like an online platform where all of my courses and things are, and we've done a little free course for people around the Indigenous women's drum. And by Indigenous, I mean like European Indigenous, like if we go back in time, the frame drum, that hand sort of held frame drum that we see has such a lineage in European indigenous work and magical work of women and, you know, holding those spaces where we might have been weaving and singing and drumming in ritualistic ways and the links to it in collecting, like agricultural links and collecting grain and... Anyway, there's a whole, it's very exciting. I love this area of work. My friend Jane Elworthy says rhythm is political, and so if you can be in a space where you get to make your own sacred object of the drum and then you use that in your magical work, like that's power right there.

Kim: Okay, this is interesting because today I, this is the first time I've done manual labor in a long time because I had a hip replacement. I couldn't, up until last year, I couldn't do it because of hip pain and I had a hip replacement and this is the first time that I've gone out and really done manual labor. And so like five minutes, I came in, I sent you the link to this interview, and then I went out and I played System of a Down and I screamed, sang, and danced around to it to get myself up and going.

Hollie: Excellent.

Kim: So that's neat.

Hollie: Yeah. Music is a shapeshifter. Shapeshifter like in terms of you know when we talk about creating Spaces and creating circles and using energy like music can do that so well. Yeah, and it's been with humans since the beginning of time it's one of those ancestral things that are in, within all of us.

Kim: Huh. This is so not... this is a wild interview. (both laugh) We're just all over the place.

Hollie: That's why I laughed.

Kim: Maybe that's just me, maybe I'm the one all over the place. (laughs) But anyway, if you could only recommend one source of information, be it book, podcast, you know, whatever, to a new witch, what would it be and why?

Hollie: I had to think about this one a lot. What I came to, and it's totally a self-plug, but I'll explain why, is I wrote a little book years ago now, which is just about the rhythm of life and about the layers in that. So when I was talking before about the wheel and the seasons and the times of day, and one of the other layers could be our menstrual cycle, our life stages, you know, the way that we journey through life and the different developmental phases we go through, each of these are layers on this map of the rhythm of life. And the reason that I want you witches to understand that is because if you can start to get your brain working in a cyclical fashion, then you understand nature, because we're not, we and nature are not linear, right? But that's how we're acculturated and that's how we're educated in our, in the places that we live in the world. So if we can start to learn how everything is connected and all those layers overlap each other in the cycle, now you're thinking magically, and now you can do any of the work because you're there in it. It's the being, not the trying. So that's kind of what I came up with when you asked me about that. And also, I would add that anything that's going to make you change the way you think and change the way that you have been acculturated and educated, I think is good for a witch. And it doesn't even have to be about magic. But one place I would start if you're going to go the magic route is Witches and Pagans by Max Dashu. I think that's an amazingly well-researched book that just has layers and layers and layers of historical information, particularly for settler people in the West, so Euro people, people whose ancestors are European, because it reminds us that the magic is there in our lineage very much and just because we were Christianized and colonized and all the things doesn't make it go away. So Max Dashu's book is amazing in that way and it's a tome, like you've got to go deep in to read it. And then another thing that I used a lot when I was, I know you said only one, but... (laughs) the other thing that I really like is anything by Barbara Walker. Like this is old school. I don't even know how easy it is to get anymore, but her book that's called Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, again, if you read that, you start to see the world differently. And so then you start to think magically. So yeah, anything that will rewrite that herstory a bit instead of the history, you know, his story, that I think is really valuable for witches to start moving into those edges that we're talking about, that renegade rebellious world.

Kim: So how do they get yours again?

Hollie: It's on my website. Will we have somewhere to do links and things?

Kim: Yeah.

Hollie: Yeah, cool.

Kim: So I can put, it's gonna be in the show notes.

Hollie:  Yeah, cool. So it's just it's called the rhythm of life and it shows up everywhere on my website, but it's just a downloadable. It's you know, they don't have to pay for it, but you read that and then you see how the world connects and then you move forward with that new connection. We see what happens in your brain.

Kim: Would you say that environment has shaped your practice? I'm going to guess the answer. I think I know the answer. (both laugh)

Hollie: You answer this one, Kim. (laugh)

Kim: I think it's going to be yes, because you live in nature and you interact with nature. But how do you think it might be different if you lived on the opposite side of the continent or in the middle of your continent?

Hollie: Yeah, yeah. That's kind of how I reflected when I saw the question. I think living with somewhere where there's a clear, what seems like four seasons has really shaped me. And I know that most Indigenous groups in Australia actually see anywhere between six and eight seasons. And the further north that you go, the more obvious that is to us, even though I'm sure it's probably obvious to people in the area that I live, too, who have grown up and understand all of the culture of it. But I think if I were in a more tropical area or a more desert area, then maybe the structure in my mind around that four-part cycle or that eight-part cycle might have to shift and change a bit. And so I haven't had to do that, being that I live somewhere where there is four clear ones. Also though, when I saw that question, I just thought around like culture and privilege and socioeconomic everything, you know, and how that shapes who I am. Like I am a middle-class white woman living in Australia. That shapes my practice. It might be very different if I was not any one of those things or all those things. So I want to speak to that too, because it, and how I can relate, you know, how I can have access to have a property like I do, like all those pieces of my privilege and just how I get to show up in the world shapes me. So I try to give that out, you know, try to share that with other people because I don't want it only to be for me.

Kim: I like that. How do you pull yourself out of a magical slump or a low period in your cycle?

Hollie: It's the habit of the cycle. I create my life with the structure of the cycle so that I can't have a slump. You know, the slump does happen in the depths of winter when I don't want to get out of bed, but eventually I've got to get out of bed. And so the cycles, the habits are still there within that cyclical alignment. It's like, just keep doing the things, like keep scooping the poo, keep hosing the garden, or you know, whatever it is. Those chop wood, carry water elements of life, I think, you know, I don't think there's a difference between magic and mundane. I think the more mundane it is, the more magical it actually brings us into ourselves. Something that I heard a couple decades ago, and I can't remember the last name of the person, but her first name was Cera, spelled with a C, and she was talking about going to the gym, but I sort of apply it wherever I feel like I need to. "You don't have to want to, you just have to go."

Hollie: Yeah, yeah. Don't try, just be.

Kim: Yeah, and what you said reminded me of that.

Hollie: Even though we know there's a cycle and there's a lot of things that have to happen, getting out of the slump is just doing the next thing, like just putting the gym shoes on, just getting to the gym, just lifting the first weight, sometimes that's how I break down the day so that there isn't a slump, so I can just keep going.

Kim: It also helps me to remember that it is a cycle, and the slump will end eventually, I just gotta get there.

Hollie: Exactly, and allowing those spaces, like the spaces for reflection and slumping and dance is really important. Yeah.

Kim: What is something you wish was discussed more in the witch community?

Hollie: So many things. (laughs) But I mean, again, I don't know what's being discussed in the TikTok world or anything like that. But I know what I've seen over the years is, I would love for more people to be able to have that wild connection, the ancestral connection, not in the sense that I know that my parents come from Scotland and so we wear kilts, but, you know, wild connection with all the things that our ancestors would have always done. And also I'd like to see less spells, more cultural change. Like how can we use our witchcraft? I think Reclaiming does this really well. How do we use our witchcraft in ways that actually move the tribe forward? And by the tribe, I mean our whole culture and community. Because that's what witches have always done, if we're walking on the edges and holding those spaces of the hedge witch. I know that's not the only way to do witchcraft, but that is definitely an ancestral piece for us as settlers. That, like, how can we use our magic and our craft to create change in cultures where things are not okay and make it better? And I think that takes more than just spells, right? So I would like to see those kind of discussions happening more and more, not just in Reclaiming, but everywhere.

Kim: Do you ever work with other witches?

Hollie: Yes, and. (laughs) I run a lot of groups. Over the years I've done it in lots of different ways, but currently it's around bringing groups together and holding space for the seasons. I run seasonal retreats and I do an online circle program as well, where each circle we check in on a story that would be some sort of kind of goddess story and then we reflect with that. So yes, I work with other witches, but mostly I'm leading those situations at the moment. Yeah. And we'll see what the future brings, because I don't always want to lead.

Kim: What or who would you say are the three biggest influences on your practice?

Hollie: One of my mentors, her name was Thea Geyer. She started out in Australia as a, not like a priest, like a minister. She was a minister and the first female minister within the church that she was involved in. But soon enough realized that there wasn't a lot of places for women in the church. And so she became quite the renegade and she started a book club within her church with Merlin Stone's book, When God Was a Woman. She didn't realize it was such a big thing. Someone told her to read the book and they used it as a book club and they started to ask all these questions about women and feminism and how that fits with religion and how that fits in the church and who we could be if we weren't being subjugated. Anyway, she was asked to leave the church very quickly. (laughs) And then she went on to study women's history and she developed a lot of courses that were taught all over Australia. And we call her one of the midwives of the goddess in Australia because of course there's always been spirit in this land, but in terms of bringing alive that European lineage of the goddess and who we were before Christianity, she was a big piece of that. And I was really privileged to be able to meet her and work with her for a while. And I was sort of one of the people that she left a lot of her work to. So when she passed away a few years ago, I've got boxes and boxes of her writing and her work (Kim gasps) that over time, one day in my spare time, I'm going to create into useful content for people to have access to. But I even have the posters of the retreats that she was running at the time. She was an excellent bookkeeper. She kept every piece of information. She has a list of everyone who came to those retreats every time. And what we worked out years into it when we got to know each other, was that my mum had been at one of those retreats in the 90s phase, in that New Age phase that she went through and she had been and she'd learnt with Thea and then years later her and I connected. So she is a huge influence in a lot of –

Kim: That's cool!

Hollie: Really cool. Amazing. You know, she, in the 80s, when she was going through that phase of trying to understand the women's movement and the historical lineage of the goddess, she created a bunch of posters that were just huge, glossy posters of goddess imagery from statues. So say like a Kalima statue from India or the Saiki statue that has the nose knocked off from Iran. And she took these posters, she started in Australia, she would sell them just at fairs and things and she had all these amazing stories of the first time a woman, like think back to the 80s, there wasn't a lot of representation of women being powerful in all of their forms, in all those body forms. So like the Venus of Willendorf with the big voluptuous shapes in her body. And so Thea was selling these posters that just basically said like, whatever your shape is, you are important and we've always revered this, yeah? And so, those, yeah, she's got all these stories of women just coming back and going, "Oh my god, I looked at myself in the mirror and, you know, cried and actually appreciated my body for the first time, and realized that this has always been important in the world. We don't only have to look like what all the magazines of the 80s show us." So then she took that across the world. She wrote to people like Carol Christ and Susanna Budapest and she just basically showed up on their doorstep and said, ìHi, Iím from Australia. Iím going around the world selling my posters and kind of backpacking around. Can I stay with you? And she stayed with all these people! (Kim laughs) That's just incredible!

Kim: That's amazing.

Hollie: So amazing! And I'd be like, you know, starry-eyed, like, oh my gosh, is that a Budapest? And she's like, they're just regular people, Hollie. They're just people like us. (both laugh)So, yeah, she was just such a great mentor and influenced so much of the way that I think about working with women and how we move the herstory, like how we keep moving the herstory. She would always say to me, women have to know the history before you can teach them what's happening now. Like we have to know where we've come from. And I agree with that very strongly. So she was, she's number one mentor. Another big influence on my practice was a mentor named Gare Foxtewin. He's a Norse dude who was born in Australia. Oh, no, sorry, he wasn't born in Australia. He moved, immigrated to Australia when he was young, and his family has a long shamanic line back in Norway. And so I was able to study with him for a while and that's where I learned about the drum specifically and learned how to use and transmute with the drum, use that as a horse, as a horse as in like how to journey across all the planes, yeah, all the shamanic planes. So he was really meaningful in that way for me, but also he was a martial artist, so we had that connection too. And we still keep in touch. He's getting quite elderly, and there's so many things I notice almost daily that I'm like, oh, that sparks from Gare. That was a teaching that Gare gave me. So that's been really powerful. And then the third influence is nature. Nature, the cycles, the seasons, and the land and the water and the sky. It's always the reference point to go back to.

Kim: Do you have any words of advice for new witches that you haven't already given?

Hollie: Follow your renegade heart! And find a mentor, I think. Educate yourself, but find mentors that are already where you want to be, so that you don't have to try it, you just get to go and be it with them. That was the big pieces for me, was that mentorship of people that have already thought about the questions that you have. It doesn't mean that you copy their answers, but it can kind of propel you into new thinking and new ways of being. And I think when you're educating yourself to be educating from all areas. Like so if you're into witchy things, don't just educate yourself on TikTok witch videos, like go deep into occult history, go learn about history and herstory, go learn from your indigenous local people, go learn about animist traditions across the world, like look at socio and political constructs that have affected magic but also are affecting culture now. All of those shape a magical way of being. So we just continue to educate, educate, educate.

Kim: That makes me happy. Who do you think I should have on the show?

Hollie: Well, my friend Lucy Cavendish is quite a famous witch in Australia. She's written a lot of books. I don't know if she makes it over to the States. She is an amazing wealth of knowledge. She is a beautiful human, and I think she would find some of these questions really fun. So I can hook you up if you want to talk to her.

Kim: Yes, please! Also, her name sounds familiar.

Hollie:  Yeah, I think she's pretty famous. I don't even know how many books, maybe close to it. I don't know. I don't want to guess, but she's written a lot. And she does a lot of cards too, like card decks, Oracle card decks. So you've probably seen some of those, I'd say.

Kim: Is there anything else you wanted to bring up, or any questions that you had for me?

Hollie: I'm really passionate about gathering, people gathering. So we do run the seasonal retreats here, which are very small gatherings, intimate events. I also run an event called Wise Women Gathering, which has about between 150 and 200 women that come along. And that has four streams. It's magically inclined. But specifically, we say the four streams are plant wisdom, holistic living, women's mysteries and cultivating community. And so we have, it's a full weekend event. There are over 30 educators, all really high end, very knowledgeable, wise women in Australia. And I love producing that event because it allows people to make contact with people they wouldn't have before, right, and to have that power of the gathering. And there's all these political elements that come with that. So yeah, I would, you know, if you're in Australia, please check out Wise Women Gathering and check me out for seasonal retreats. I do have a lot of things online, like courses and things online, and we continue to grow that space. So within Wise Women Gathering, we actually record all of the educators and we put those up as content on our platform, which is called Self-Crafted Life Portal. That's like a Mighty Networks thing. Some people would know about Mighty Networks, I think. So that's the way to work with me, I guess, if you're overseas and the way to access all of this wisdom and knowledge that you wouldn't be able to get person to person. And we'll put links, we'll give all the links to Kim to put up about that.

Kim: Yes.

Hollie: And I like to hang out on Instagram. So I'm just @hollie.bakerboljkovac on Instagram. Very easy to find as long as you can work out how to spell it. So we'll make sure the spelling's right. (both laugh)

Kim: And there will, yeah, the links will be below if you can't, I can't even imagine what the transcript is going to make of that when I transcribe it. Maybe it'll, maybe it knows.

Hollie: (laughs) That's great.

Kim: The last two things. Thing number one, would you please recommend something to the listeners? Anything at all.

Hollie: I just finished watching Russian Doll, which I know I'm slow to the table on. It's amazing. It's so good. So if you haven't got there, do that. Also, I watched the new version of The Craft not that long ago, which I thought was amazing. I was so impressed with it. I thought it was going to be terrible, but it blew me away. So yeah, if you haven't watched the new Craft, which has obviously been out for ages, watch that too. 

Kim: And if you're feeling grumpy about it existing, David Duchovny's in it. (both laugh) So go watch just for that, if you're mad about it. The last thing is, please tell me a story.

Hollie: Well, you know, you said in your notes, tell a funny story. And the first thing that popped into my head, I don't know if other people are going to think this is funny, but my daughter and I were traveling last year and we stayed at this little hotel in the middle of nowhere. Like it was literally the tiniest little town. The only place we could get food was the petrol station and it was, you know, chips and ice creams kind of thing. And we turn on the TV and, you know, like you do the Netflix thing on in the hotel room and you expect that you have to log in, but somebody else was already logged into it. So we full trolled them and we changed all of their names. Like we didn't do anything horrible, but it was just like someone was called Stuart. So we changed it to Beef Stew. And we made a different photo picture. We just changed all of them. We were cackling ourselves. We just thought it was the funniest thing ever. We're like posting it on Instagram... and still when we talk about it, we just crack, like if someone brings it up, we just start cracking up. And we just always think like those people, what if those people went back to their account and they're like, "What happened?" And we imagine them still fighting about it, right? So yeah, that's the best thing that's happened in the last year, really. (laughs)

Kim: I love that because I'm a troll.

Hollie: (laughs) I don't think I've ever said anything like that before.

Kim: In fact today, just today, I just posted this on facebook: "Just so you know, I'm a troll, but I will become incensed if you troll me." (both laugh) So chef's kiss because that is wonderful, because it didn't hurt anybody, but it was definitely trolly.

Hollie: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. It just seems like the perfect, all the pieces just matched together there. It was very good.Kim: Well, thank you for being on the show and telling some stories and educating me.

Hollie: You're welcome. I'm really happy to just chat with you. I like talking to people from overseas.It's very special.

Kim: Me too! It's very fancy.

Hollie: Am I your first Australian?

Kim: No. I actually, well, you're like my two and a halfth. (both laugh) I talked to someone who makes tea and then I talked to Fiona Horne like for 20 minutes. 

Hollie: Oh, well done. 

Kim: Because we were testing it out. I know! I'm dying to get her back on for a whole episode. And now you. 

Hollie: Excellent. 

Kim: And if I've forgotten anybody, sorry, I am a dumb ass. I think you talk to a lot of people, don't you?

Kim: I do. 

Hollie: Why did you do the show, Kim?

Kim: Because I'm nosy.

Hollie: Nice.

Kim: I got Gemini rising, I want to know everything about everyone.

Hollie: (laughs) That's great. Well I'm glad I could scratch your itch.

Kim: Me too! It was really fun.

Hollie: Excellent. 

Kim: And everybody, be sure to go check out her website and download that book and visit her on Instagram. Links are in the show notes. And thank you, Holly, so much for being on the show, and I will see you on Instagram, probably.

Hollie: Thank you so much! I appreciate you, Kim, and I appreciate everyone that's listening. And I'll see you somewhere. Bye! 

(fade in) ...Then we'd go into the city to go to my grandma's house and they had all the channels, and Alf was on the TV.  But at her house there was a long corridor to get to the toilet, and there was a skylight above the toilet. And I was so terrified that every time I went to the toilet, Alf was gonna stick his head over that skylight and come and get me. So I was just never liking it... (fade out) 

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