In this episode I talk to Rockette Fox, storyteller, illustrator, and witch. . Rockette talks about wanting to see more eastern culture in witchcraft, reading coffee grounds, and the effects of religion on society.

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Rockette Fox.

Entertainer, Artist, and Witch

Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where we meet every Tuesday to talk about witch life, witch stories, and sometimes a little witchcraft. In this episode, I talk to Rockette Fox, storyteller, illustrator, and witch. Rockette talks about wanting to see more Eastern culture in witchcraft, reading coffee grounds, and the effects of religion on society. Before we get started, here's a word from this week's sponsor, the Finch and the Forest. The Finch and the Forest specializes in magically handcrafted, spiritually inspired amulets, curios, and botanicals. Based in the Mississippi River Bend of the Midwest, Emily Fink launched the Finch and the Forest to combine her lifelong passions for jewelry making and gardening alongside storytelling. She enjoys making jewelry with one of a kind tumbled stones so that each piece is truly unique and loves being able to craft plants from her garden into various curios and botanical products. To shop, visit thefinchandtheforest.com and use the coupon code AVERAGE for 10% off your entire purchase. You can also find The Finch and the Forest on Instagram and Facebook where Emily highlights her products intertwined with magic and mythology. The Finch and the Forest is eager to serve you on your spiritual path. So visit thefinchandtheforest.com today. Now let's get to the stories. 

K: Hello Rockette, welcome to the show. 

R: Hello, it is wonderful to be here. 

K: Yay! Would you please introduce yourself, and let everybody know who you are and what you do and where they can find you? 

R: Absolutely! Hello everyone, my name is Rockette Fox, and yeah. I am a storyteller, illustrator, crafter, creator, performer, witchy woman, and yeah, doer of a lot of things, and I like to think a fun person to be around. And yeah, you can find me in pretty much all the places where Rockette Fox can be found. If you just look me up anywhere, I will be there. Instagram most often, Facebook, I am on a couple different channels on Twitch weekly for various streams that I'm part of, but if you follow my other socials, you'll see, you'll see, I put all the information out there.

K: And you have a Patreon...

R: I do.

K: ...and I noticed that you've been putting, I joined the Patreon, you guys, and you should too. I know she does, she puts out a, I think it's, I don't know how often you do it, but it's a meditation video. I liked it. 

R: Thank you so much. Yeah, it's something new I've been doing that I was going to say, I think I put a couple out, so I shouldn't have to think too hard about it, but I've only started doing it this year, but I started doing one monthly, but I think I'm going to do it more frequently. It's not been super hard to do, and I've really been enjoying putting them out there. I think the ones I have so far, one was a kind of getting into your body mindfulness thing, and the other was a mind walk, if you will, kind of describing going on a walk in the forest and things like that.

K:  I love stuff like that. I love that words are made of magic and they can make me see things in my head. 

R:  Yes, completely agree. And I actually, I do have mail out goodies that do tend to happen as well. I am woefully behind, but they, you know, that is something else. 

K: I know how that goes. What's the link to your Patreon? 

R: Yeah, it is patreon.com/rockettefox. 

K: Nice. Now, what does it mean to you when you call yourself a witch? 

R: Yeah, I, it's, it's such an interesting question because I think it means a lot, which I feel like it does, likely, you know, I don't want to speak for anyone else but likely to a lot of people who really fall under the term, who identify that way. I think that, for me personally, it's getting in touch with the fact that I've always been kind of a weird gal into bones and into the, the quoteunquote "creepier" sorts of things, spooky stories, things like that, but also somebody who has always been really interested in, you know, and I say this with a caveat that I think there are a lot of different flavors, you know, there are people who would consider themselves like kitchen witches, green witches, things like that.
 I'm somebody who has always really enjoyed walking through the forest and just picking things up like a crow, and to be fair I'll pick things up anywhere. But yeah, I think an aspect of kind of getting in touch with my own personal characteristics that I think fall under that category, I think there's another side to it as well, that kind of goes hand in hand with the idea of people who are not happy with the way things are, to say it lightly, in terms of culture, politics, things like that. But this idea that reclaiming a, not just a word, but a symbol of being of, at least in, I know, American history, a lot of Western history, represents people who were killed and persecuted because of a fear of their power. And I think that really speaks to a lot of people these days.

K: Yes. 

R: You know, and then I think there is also the aspect of just ritual practice, people who practice various different religious beliefs and things like that, too,  so I think there's many different branches that it really covers in a way that I think is pretty interesting from a lot of other quote unquote "identifiers" that people can use. 

K: This just made me excited to talk to you!

R: Good, good. 

K: Also when you said crow I then thought, oh, what would I do in the woods? Put things in my pockets. Maybe I'm a pocket witch. 

R: Right? 

K: But that means I'm tiny, which I'm not necessarily. But pockets? Witches with pockets. 

R: Yeah, jumping into a pocket, that feels so nice and comforting. 

K: Not, not mine. 

R: What?

K: It's full of weird crap that you'd get if you walked in the woods with it. 

R: That's even better! Yeah, I love that.

K: Do you have any family history with witchcraft, or any stories? Even if you don't, not necessarily, your family wouldn't love the word witch, they still did something that looking back is kind of witchy? 

R: Well it's, I actually have an interesting answer to that, so, because so my mother is Korean. And by that I mean from Korea, but also from extremely rural. She grew up in what effectively I think is the southern-most village, I think it would still be considered a village, ver small place, a farming village kind of on the southern coast. And, excuse, and even now in Korea, even though it's primarily a Christian nation, for all intents and purposes, there is still a lot of shamanism that is practiced. And it's in a way that I don't know if it's necessarily seen in a religious context, so to speak. I feel like it tends to be a little different, you know, in American and Western culture where it's like, ah, yes, this is a quote unquote "religious thing". I don't know that it's necessarily like that. It's kind of just something that's done. 
And even now in modern times, there's still a lot of practicing that goes on. I remember reading an article that I don't remember exactly what year it was, but there was work being done on I believe was the net National Museum of some kind, I, it was either like natural history or art or something. They were doing some renovations to it or adding something on. And I believe a fire broke at one point. And so before continuing on, they actually ended up having a shaman come and do some shamanistic things. But as far as my family goes, my mom's, one of her older brothers, she had two older brothers, the one who was not the oldest, but the second oldest, he had ended up, I think he was early 20s, I want to say he ended up committing suicide. I think he was early 20s, I want to say, he ended up committing suicide, and he had still lived at home and such. 
And so I had been asking my mom if, fairly recently, if she had ever visited his grave space, because I remember the last time I visited the village I was 15, that was oh, years ago, but I remember when I was there I saw, we had visited the graves for my, her grandmother, and then both of her parents, well, at that point, my grandmother was still alive. So her, her father, and they were not necessarily on their property, but very close by. So when I asked her about her brother she said apparently that people who who are non landowners and not married when they pass, at least in these times, got buried in a public cemetery. And she had actually asked her mother where her brother's grave was and her mother, my grandmother, wouldn't tell her. Because the idea was that people who died in such a fashion would become ghosts. And so her mother didn't want the, his ghost to, I guess, follow them home.

K: Follow them home?

R: Yeah, or kind of hang out. I don't really know. So she had never found out. But she, my mother also shared with me kind of in the same storytelling session that apparently at a certain point a young lady had passed who was unmmarried in the village, and so my grandparents, I don't know if this gal's parents did as well, I'm not really sure, but she, they ended up calling a shaman and, who did a post-mortem marriage, so to speak? And then married the two of them together after they... dead. So that's, I think the biggest example of something that I feel would fit into that category that has happened with my family. 

K: Of all the things you could have ended that statement with, it wasn't a wedding. 

R: It, you know? And like, I am so curious. I have so many questions. Like, I want to know what, you know what, I can list them all.

K: What the bride wore. 

R: Yeah, pretty much everything you would imagine that is a question, is a question that I have about this. 

K: Hmm, that's interesting!

R:  Yeah, no, and I love stuff like that. I think that's so, so fascinating. 

K: Me too. And I have to say, to the listeners and to you, the way I found you is, I was just randomly looking up, I don't know, probably the word witch on Instagram and I saw a picture of you and it was a neat looking picture. I think it was the one where you have the moon on your forehead and you were describing how you did it or something. 

R: Yeah. 

K: And then I looked more into you because I'm always looking for people to have on the show. And then I saw "Storyteller" and I was like, okay, I'm asking. And already it's paid off, so thank you. 

R: No, I'm so glad you did. 

K: Me too. Now, do you have any, can you share any of your practice? Do you have any consistent rituals or anything you do on a maybe daily or if not daily, regular basis?

R: Girl, I want to say that I do. I really do. I. so I personally I, and this is just me with my own mental health and stuff. I am barely consistent with waking up every day. So, so the real answer to that would probably be no. There are definitely things I would want to do more frequently. One of the things that I have done pretty regularly, when I can, is I do, I'll make coffee Turkish style, which is where you have the little, you know, Turkish grounds, very, I would compare them to espresso grounds, but they're very dark, very rich. And the way you make this coffee is, you have to have a little Turkish coffee pot, which is a copper kettle, isn't the right word, because it's open on top. It's a tiny little copper deal with a handle on it. 
And then you put the grounds in there, you put the sugar in there and you put some water in there and then you set it on the burner, whatever format your burner takes. And then as you boil it, you kind of keep stirring it, which whenever I first started doing it, you know, I didn't set out making coffee in this way being like, oh, yes, a ritual, which to be fair, I think, if we were all mindful enough, everything could be a ritual. But, you know, this, this process of stirring is very kinesthetic and very evocative for me of like, you know, "Oh it's a brew of some kind!" And so what I would do is then kind of speak to it, and tha  thank it for the awake levels that it is going to, stares very intently, keep me awake and focused, and just kind of speaking to it as it cooks before it gets put into my body system. So that's one. Yeah, other stuff, I don't know if it's necessarily been quite as consistent as I would want it to be. Because that's kind of an ongoing just me problem. 

K: Me too.

R:  I will tell you. 

K: I'm lucky if I can light a candle in the morning. 

R: Oh Like, I keep trying, and this veers slightly in a different direction, but I, girl, I keep trying to develop some sort of routines for anything. Like I have so many journals that are like guided, this is how you have a, you know, good sleep hygiene. This is how you, you know, regularly meditate. Here's a financial journal, you know, and I start writing in them, and then I completely get sidetracked and I never touch it again. But then I see another one advertised to me online. I'm like, yes, this is the key. So... 

K: Yes. How many, how many three-page written journals do we have, listeners? 

R: Oh my god. Oh, it's terrible. 

K: Comment below. Y

R: Yeah, no, it's a lot. It's a lot.

K: Do you read the grounds ever? 

R: I have before. I did it one time with the coffee that I made. And I didn't, I don't think I started the process right. I mean, I made the coffee, but when I flipped, you know, you... so the way you read grounds is that you'll you'll have your little cup, which normally for Turkish coffee, there are these tiny little adorable coffee mugs. And then you'll finish it up. You'll have, and with Turkish coffee, you don't filter it out. So the grounds are all just in there and you kind of you don't drink them. 
That would be really aggressive. But you know, you can if you want to. I'mnot here to tell you what you can and can't do. But normally they're left at the bottom of the cup. And then you'll take the little saucer that it's on and place it on top of the cup at the opening and then you flip it over and kind of let it sit there and the sludge kind of slowly make its way down the sides of the cups and then afterward you'll, you know, lift it up and you'll have like these different shapes and it's kind of like a little coffee Rorschach. But I did it one time and I don't, I think I left too much liquid in there because it just, it didn't work out. And I just never tried it again. I was like, well, I made a mess. 

K: It's funny that this is coming up, because I just went to a Mediterranean place for the first time with, I mean, for this particular one. Yeah. With my husband and he got one and the sludge was at the bottom. We didn't have a saucer. Plus, I'm not going to ask the waitress to clean up after we decide "We're going to read some grounds!" I'm not going to do that, but I really wanted to. 

R: Yeah, well, and it's, you know, I had a friend of mine who is Bulgarian who read my grounds one time and she did a great job. And I really tried to channel some of that just, process. And I don't know what it is that I did, but it went everywhere. Like it went everywhere. And I didn't think I had left, like really, coffee, capital C, in there, but apparently I did. 

K: So yeah, see, I don't even drink coffee. So I was just interested. 

R: That'll make it harder. Although if you if you drink tea at all, I know you can read tea leaves as well, kind of by a similar process.

K:  I drink caffeinated Kool-Aid. 

R: I don't know if you can do it with that. 

K: I'm an adult!

R: I don't know if it works with that. I think you could try. I mean, you know. 

K: If I spill it. 

R: I'm sure it'll work itself out. 

K: Would you say witchcraft has changed your life? 

R: You know, I think more so than the practice itself, I think the community has. And I say that because... I'm thinking specifically of, I'm a part of a Reddit community called Witches Versus Patriarchy, which is... yeah, it's a fantastic, it is fantastic. It's a great space. And very well-moderated, too, so yeah, they just, they do a real good job of stuff over there. But I started posting over there fairly regularly, it, yeah, initially with the makeup looks. And as time went on I started pairing with it, these kind of goodwill texts to go along with it, which is how I tend to do stuff now. But it it started getting fairly popular, and I started getting fairly well known over there. And it really made a difference in the amount of a community, I think that emerged from that. 
People just reaching out and connecting and saying things and stuff. But then also, getting into kind of some more sensitive territories, where I remember there would be a few comments people would make, you know, from something as simple as, oh, "I really needed to see this", you know, "This has really been helpful," to somebody had commented one time, like, oh, you know, "I am in the midst of having a lot of like self-harm issues right now, like what..." uestion, question, support, you know, and then a lot of people ended up responding to that and like kind of, yeah, it was just really cool to see kind of this community arise and come together. So I think that's been one of the coolest things that I've experienced. From from this.

K: I love witches.

R:  Yeah, no, it's I...

K: That makes me very happy. 

R: Yeah, and don't get me wrong. I think any, any time and place where you have many people, you know, you can you can get such a, you know, if people, you know it can be anything. You can you can get such a different array. But on the whole I have found it to be one of the most welcoming and inclusive communities. 

K: Me too, I've experienced similar things. I like it.

R: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. 

K: What would you say is the biggest motivator in your practice? 

R: Biggest motivator? I think as far as the biggest motivator, the primary one, I think, would be self-improvement. Because I think... I'm very big on self-love and self-care. Because I think, especially as people who were raised culturally under the women umbrella, you know, it's, there's this sense of "put your needs to the side, look out for other people, be nurturing." Like, you know, and a lot of weird responsibility that gets put on people such as, you know, the classic "Cover up because you'll cause dudes to have-"

K: You'll distract Johnny.

R: Right, well, and it's like you cause someone else to have these feelings. And I think even just aside from responsibility and gender politic and all this, like, I think just even on the whole, the idea of if you're in a relationship, you know, the idea that you have a conflict with someone, and this person is not causing you to have feelings. Like, they're not responsible for your experience, you know. It can, somebody can be acting real shitty and and trigger a lot of stuff, you know, and that doesn't mean it's okay for anybody to act shitty, but like, for us to be able to be responsible for our own feelings and experiences, and to be able to create boundaries around that in terms of like, "Hey, you know what, I notice there's a lot being triggered for me in this and that is not okay for me. So you need to cut it out," or, you know, or else something's gonna change here. But I think kind of along those lines, this, this sense of personal empowerment and reaching back into the classic view of like, what a witch is, you know, if you look into fairy tale folklore, like, generally speaking, they were, they embodied things that weren't seen as acceptable for women folk around the time, such as... old, for one.

K: Yeah. 

R: Or unattractive, or too attractive, or, you know, independent. 

K: Not wanting to be second class. 

R: Right. And independent and like, you know, happy with themselves, and all of these different things. Like, I think there's a lot to that, that that was the main, quote unquote, "issue", you know, and again, kind of going back to what you said earlier. I think that's what initially drew me and I think that draws a lot of people in. 

K: Do you ever feel like you have self-doubt about your practice, or calling yourself a witch, or do you ever feel like you have imposter syndrome about it? 

R: I, yes and. Yeah, I think one of the things that tends to be the hardest for me to talk about is like, there was a written interview I did with somebody who runs an Instagram account for a college club? Question mark? that's witchy-based? I seem to remember that was what the premise was. But one of the first questions was like, you know, how do you describe witchcraft in terms of your belief system, and things like that. And for me, I, you know, I, y'all can check out my personal Facebook if you want to verify me on this. When it says, you know, I don't know, you know how Facebook has it like your religion or something. 
I don't even remember what they posit it as. But um, what I have written under there is Christian witch, which, you know, I've heard the phrase come up from like another account before and I was like, meh, you know, I don't love it as a term. But simultaneously, I'm not really sure where else to go with it. And that's always really difficult for me to bring up and talk about because I, you probably can, but I don't know that you can find a lot of people more disgusted by like, the Christian culture, and like... Just everything that that stands for, than Myself. I'm so, I am so, I am so, just... you know... picture in your mind just like a GIF of someone just vomiting everywhere, you know, like it's it's so gross, you know. In a way that for me, the way that my personal belief system works is that, you know, I was raised Christian, and I kind of have, I veered away from the ways that I was raised.
And it's the sort of thing to where when I look at all this other stuff going on, you know, because I've read through the Bible a couple times and things like that, and I find that my biggest take on it is this idea of, you know, whenever there's a story where Jesus was asked like, "Oh, what's the most important commandment?" and all this stuff. And the first thing they said was, you know, love the Lord, your God, blah, blah, blah, etc, etc. And then in the same breath, you know, also love your neighbor as yourself. And for me, I'm like, that is, that is the main takeaway, from here, of this entire quote, unquote, "religion," of this entire belief system. That is the main thing. That is what you are supposed to do. And as far as the way that we see that presented here, and in...

K: It ain't that.

R: You know?  And it's like, for me, it's like, yo, unless you have got that down pat, like unless you are now a professional and have this imperfection, I don't really want to hear your opinion on literally anything else. And so it's this kind of weird interplay. And like, dude, Christianity as a system has been so harmful. So incredibly harmful and toxic for so many people, that it's, it's the sort of thing that for me, I have a relationship with any sort of otherworldly system and deity and things like this, that I think I would probably classify as being pretty broad.  
And unfortunately, I don't think there's there's not really another word? Question mark? I can use? But at the same time, it's like it's, it's been so harmful, especially to people in the spaces that I inhabit. You know,  people who call themselves witches who, people who are in alternative communities, the LGBTQIA community, every, like, it has been so incredibly toxic and harmful that, you know, I want to distance myself incredibly for that, while at the same time being able to honor like the parts that I still connect with, I guess? I don't know if any of that makes sense. It's a lot of words to say that it's complicated, and mostly gross. 

K: Well, it's... if you... I can speak for myself only. But if I saw a woman in a relationship, and Christianity was the dude, "Look what you made me do. You made, you made me send you to hell because you didn't do what I tell you to do. Look what you made me do. I've sent you to hell."

R: Right.

K:  That's lunacy. 

R: Right, you know, and like, and it's, it's the sort of thing to where anything you have, like, any, any religious text or anything like that was written by a person, most likely a man. You know, coming from a time and a place and a culture in which they are, you know, I mean, none of us can really separate ourselves from that. And so there, does anyone have any concept of otherworldly things truly, truly, truly? You know, because we're all so steeped in our experiences and what we see and what we feel and how we've lived our lives, you know, I think to a degree, we really can't completely separate ourselves from that, because it's, it's just not possible? 
Question mark? You know, and so then you have the additional problematic area of like "And now we have religions built around these things that people said..." that they heard, that they got from somebody else, that they heard, from somewhere else, you know, and that- Now people are making different inferences based on and like, and thusly controlling people, which is, you know, I mean, I, I gently, gently, say that I, the institution of religion is primarily for control. You know?

K: I agree.

R:  You know, and it's, I, I really don't think that's healthy. Um, or, or just like... how things should be. Just in any format, you know. 

K: Frankly, I'm okay with the stuff I learned in Bible school, because I was raised Baptist. My granddad was a preacher. I am okay with the stuff I learned in Bible school. But after that? The stuff that wasn't about Jesus? And be kind, and love your neighbor and be kind to strangers, and the random homeless dude who wanders in and asks you to food, asks you for food.

R: Yeah!

K: Other than that, I just, no, thank you. 

R: Yeah, because it's, so much of it is based on shame. And that is SO harmful. That is so, so incredibly harmful. You know, and then you've got people who are raised in the throes of shame, you know? I mean, it's no wonder people feel the way they feel, and are afraid of what they're afraid of, you know.

K: Yeah, it's totally my fault that everything bad is happening. 

R: You're right, right. 

K: Just because I have a vagina. OKAY.

R:  You're right, right. 

K: All right. 

R: Yeah. So, yeah. So, and I've vaguely forgotten what the initial question was. 

K: Me too! And I kept thinking, what are we talking about? Okay. I don't care because this is interesting!

R:  And that's the thing though, that I think is the hardest thing for me to really speak on, and come to terms with, I think, for myself, is that I firmly believe that there is some sort of force, power, presence? That is a nurturing and caring thing that, you know, whatever that may be. And I think it's our responsibility to enact that, and to channel that, and just try the best that we can. You know. And that to say that, you know, for people who are like out there protesting and not that I don't protest, but like, getting aside from the idea of just loving everyone to death. 
You know, I mean, there are definitely more aggressive stances that need to be taken, and such like this, but it's this idea of, you know, love your neighbor, do nice things, is so inextricably tied to this, this just toxic, just, you know, imagine the ooze from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, the movies, like the live action movies originally from the 90s, and that, you know, that's what it is. It's this weird green gooey thing that like, transforms everything around it, and like turns it into a mutant of some kind. You know what I mean? It's just like this gross thing that stuff has become. And for me, I feel like that's so far from what the initial intention should have been, you know? 

K: Also, as for the question, the whole point of this podcast isn't to go down my list of questions. It's just to introduce people to new ideas and new people and new things. So I like when we veer off. That's what it's about. Let's veer. Let's tangent all over the place. 

R: Oh, I've got you. Say less. 

K: What was your what would you say is your biggest struggle when it comes to your practice? 

R: Um, I think consistency. Going back. Um, I, so I recently was actually finally more or less diagnosed with ADD, lightly, but lightly enough that I really... man. Girl, I, I struggle like to, you know, have any, any semblance of structure in my day-to-day. Which is not helped by the fact that I am a working artist. So I work out of my home studio. And I see my animals. And I don't really have to keep a regular schedule except for, you know, when I'm teaching, or doing school stuff. Which means that the only person, really, to keep any sort of consistency for myself is me, and lord knows I do not have the discipline for that kind of stuff. So... just keeping any sort of, just, not even just keeping any sort of consistency, but remembering what I'm trying to be consistent about, is just soooo hard to do.

K: At the end of the day I am usually beating myself up because that's when I remember all the things that I meant to get done. And that's when I make my to-do list... that I forget to look at the next day. I don't say that I have ADHD. I have OCD, and that anxiety makes me act, a lot of the time, like I might have ADHD or ADD, but I get it. I get it. 

R: I love writing lists. Like I love writing lists. That I never look at again. But the act of writing a list, there's something very satisfying about that. But I cannot, I can't even remember where I put my list. I have, I have little sticky note lists on all of my computers, you know, that are just on the desktop. Like I was trying to- 

K: Yeah but It goes away. You stop seeing them because they're there all the time. 

R: Yeah. And like, I tried doing like, I had this little monitor memo board set to my monitor and I tried physical sticky notes, I try and stick them all over the place. And then I just like, I'll be like, Oh, yes, this and then I just never think about it. 

K: I... yeah. Yes. 

R: So bad.

K: If we keep coming up with examples from each other, then we're just, this is gonna be the podcast. How do you forget things? 

R: Yes. feel, free to comment below. 

K: By the time they got down to the comments, there is no comment section, but if there was, by the time they got down there, they would forget and then think, "Well, I guess I'm done with this podcast." and leave. 

R: Well, it's done now. Yup, yup. 

K: Anyway, that's how it would work for me.

R: No, same. Absolutely same. And yeah, and so when it comes to any sort of practice, like, man, I am practicing, like, just doing anything during the day, like from rolling out of bed, to like, getting anything done, like that is what I'm trying to practice right now.

K:  Makes sense. What brings you the most joy in your practice? 

R: I think the element of mindfulness, and being very present. Yeah, engaging with your senses in the moment. And one of the things that I think is beautiful about ritual, wherever it is, however it's being done, is this, you are really just in that moment, you know? You're not, because I deal with a lot of like anxiety, some of it natural, some of it situational, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's one of my strengths, I would like to say.

K: Congratulations.

R:  I'm very incredibly practiced. It's, you know, I, some might call me a master in the field. But like, it's so easy, when doing anything, to, your mind being like, "Hey, you remember this thing that really freaked you out?" Why, yes, I do. Thank you. 

K: Yeah. "Let's dwell on it."

R:  Or, hey, you know, do you, "Hey, do you, I see that you're you're trying to get this one thing done. Have you recently thought about all these other things you're behind on?" you know, and it's just constantly. Constantly. But like, doing something where it's more of a practice or a ceremony or a ritual, like you really have to exercise restraint. Kind of just, just gently set those voices, you know, pick them up and just slide them under the bed, and like really focus on this one thing that you're doing. Like from the way that you're moving, to the way that things sound, and the way that they smell, and the way that things feel. And I think there's something very beautiful in that, and very centering, you know. I mean in the same way that like meditation is, and this whole mindfulness thing that the kids are on about these days. 

K: Do you have anything that you would call fear? Like, what is your biggest fear in witchcraft? 

R: Yeah, I think, I think, so for me, personally, like one of my, one of my capital T traumas is like the fear of abandonment, you know. And the fear of like, not being like, I like, it's not that I like to think of myself as a people pleaser, that's not always, that doesn't always turn out well for me. But I am, you know, I accept that this is a trend that I have. 
And I think for me, a lot of it is finding the line of being authentic to myself and my practice, and what I feel brings value to myself and the world around me, and having that not put people off, or having it be such a thing that's not gonna make people not like me. You know. And and by that, I don't mean necessarily just any random schmo off the street, like, you know, I don't really care what what random schmos think. But like, when it comes to, you know, kind of earlier when I was talking about just like this convoluted circle around my belief system and stuff, the reason why it's hard to talk about is because it's, you know, I mean, there's an inherent conflict with that, but also the idea of like, "Oh, my God, what are people in the witchy community gonna think of me?"
Like, "What, is this going to be something that like, people don't, you know, like me anymore for these reasons?" Or, you know, if I'm doing a certain sort of practice, like, "Oh, am I, you know, am I doing this in a way that people don't like?" or something like that? So I think there this sense of how it affects the bigger system around me, that I think is scary inherently. Because at the end of the day, like, yo, I think everyone's experience is individual, you know, whatever works for some people is going to work for them, whatever works for other people is going to work for them, you know, and if there's truth to it, there's truth to it. Yeah, it's really all that matters. And, but I think it can look so different for some people, that there is this, there can be this sense of like, "Oh, no, what are people going to think of this?" You know?

K:  Hmm. I didn't... I have not actually thought about this particular question for myself, but that might be one of them for me, too. 

R: Yeah, and I think it's because I think, from from what I've gleaned anyway...

K: Oh! Five hundred points for good word usage. 

R: Thank you. Thank you. I'll write, I'll write this down. But, but from what I've seen, you know, in witchy communities and witchy spaces, there are a lot of people who are, who have grown up being kind of ostracized. Being on the outside areas. And what I think can end up happening is that a lot of people will come together who have had these similar experiences, but then there's this inherent fear of like, that happening again, you know. Of reaching another space to where it's like, all of a sudden, "Oh, even this space of people that I thought were like me, who have experienced this, even they don't like me." You know, like, this, this fear of like, "When am I going to find a place?" You know, and so I think, especially people who have experienced that, there is of just where do I belong? Where are my people?

K: It makes my heart hurt. 

R: Yeah, you know, and I, and especially like, yo, especially just with everything that we see going on in the world at large, like how much ostracization there is, and how much division there is, and just, you know, gently slide, you know, things like Roe vs Wade and stuff like that. And they're like, people are feeling like they don't matter. And that, you know, there's so much stuff just stoking these, these conflicts. And rightfully so, like, to be fair, you know, I mean, I need, I need everybody to be staying out of my uterus and all this. But like, yeah, there's so much just like pelting everyone constantly, you know, that it's, it's scary. It's scary out there.

K:  can't dwell on this because I will get real pumped up.

R:  Yeah, yeah. Just to say that I think it, you know, people are very sensitive, just in general, and especially people in witchy spaces are, are sensitive to like, you know, nature, feelings, themselves, each other. And it can be a very powerful trait. It can also be a very scary one. 

K: The reason I blurted that out is because I was starting to. So. I don't want to. I was telling myself, and you guys just happen to hear me. 

R: No, I, hey, that I think is a wonderful practice that I read about. Starting, starting to get thoughts and be like, no, no, I revoke you. 

K: What is something you did early in your practice that you don't do anymore? And why don't you?

R: Hmm, I would say, so... I feel like all my answers are kind of related. But so be it. I would say one of the things that I try, like really tried to do early on was like find the special sauce, you know? Try and find like the, oh yes, this is my thing, this is what I do. You know, or like reading the books of like, "Ah yes, I'm learning these rituals," and not at all to say that that's not a completely, at any phase in your journey, not a completely healthy and valid thing to do. But I think for me, instead of just trusting what felt right for me, and trusting what kind of came to me and where my proclivities lie, like kind of trying to model that off of what somebody else was doing. I think. 

K: Hmm. You are a word nerd's dream. 

R: I'll go ahead and add another gold star here to my uh... 

K: Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. You said the word proclivities and then I didn't hear anything you said after that, because I thought, "Oh!" 

R: I will tell you, like, I didn't know if I was gonna because I want. So this has actually been going very well, because one of the medications I'm on, apparently one of the side effects is that you have a really hard time finding words you're looking for. So like, in that particular sentence, as I was getting closer to it, I was like, I don't know if it's going to be there when I get there, but we'll find out! So...

K: Well, you're winning for me. 

R: Oh my gosh. 

K: What is your favorite tool in your practice and why? It does not have to be a physical object.

R: Oh man, that is such a good one. I think my favorite tool is actually, my favorite tool is actually my pets. And I'll go ahead and say tools because I have, for anyone who knows me or follows me, I have a number of them. Some may even think of the word unhealthy when it comes to the number of them. But you know what, I have put a limit on it. To a degree. So, you know, we're not we're not over the 20s right now. But it's, what I found is that like, and what I was thinking of on hearing, and also seeing that question, is this idea of when I'm doing... like these makeup looks, and putting kind of positive tendrils out into the world. 
One of the things I tend to have with me, like I'll almost always take a picture with like one of the rats, or sometimes I'll try with like the cats or something. Normally they just start like wiggling all around. So that is harder to do. But they're so... I keep going back to this. Theyre so, they're such a grounding element, animals, just in that they're so honest, you know? They're so honest, they're so present, they're, in a way that I think, it takes so much effort. 
It takes so much effort to get into that space. You know, and I don't necessarily want to say that the animals are, here at least, are 100% of the time like, Oh, man, I was having a really bad day. And, you know, my dog came over and snuggled me. Normally for me, if I'm having a bad day, you know, and I'm maybe I'm having myself a good old little cry on the couch, I look over and the dog is just, just giving me this judgmental face, right? And just judging me. So, so I don't have the kind of relationship with them that they're always just like, "Yes, I'm here for you 100% of the time,"  you know, I've had it happen before where I'm, I'm up in arms over something I'm in the living room on my couch, just having myself a good cry.
 And then the dog is in my studio. I will see him walk out. And it's probably like 20 feet away. I see him walk out of the room, look at me, stare at me and then turn around and walk back into the room. I'm like, Wow, wow, thank you for that. I feed you, you know. You know, but even with that, there's, there's something very like, he's just doing himself, you know? He's just doing his own, he's doing... he's being honest to where he is right in that moment, you know, and I can't I can't hold anything like that against him and I appreciate that, you know, and it's, I, it reminds me of this quote? Question mark?  That I saw before that.
 I think it was, this is going to be a horrific retelling of this quote. So just bear that in mind. But it's something about like, you know, "The difference between dog people and cat people is that, you know, cat people have to be able to accept boundaries more than dog people. Because cats will make you accept their boundaries." And I say this as both a cats and dog owner, in which I will totally just pick them up and do whatnot, regardless of their feelings. But, but there is something to that, though, you know, because I think being present, being authentic, and putting up boundaries, I think are all really hard things to do. So I think it's really, it's always a really good practice and learning experience just to like, watch, watch all of these different creatures just living their lives, you know?

K:  I thought you were gonna say the one where the dog owner is like, "We worked for four months to adopt this dog," and cat owners are like, "I found mine in the trash."

R:  Yeah, oh my god. Yeah, there was... What was it? I was watching... Yeah, okay. So, so, I, I'll be real. I don't know if this is a dirty secret necessarily, but I love Judge Judy. Like, I'm going to go ahead and say it. Like, I think... She's sour. I appreciate her. You know, I, I just I guilty pleasure, Judge Judy, right there, top of the list. But like, there was this one- by the way, the woman is not young, and she has like a new show. It's, it's basically the same, you know, as Judge Judy. But now it's called like Justice Judy or something like that. But she's still, you know, just,  just judging people. But I was watching this and like, one of the things, she told this story where like she and her husband had like these, what was it like, four really like, you know, purebred cats, right? I think they were the kind with the little smushed faces or whatever, but like, they have these cats, and they take such good care of the cats. And they feed the cats special food, and they brush the cats, and all these other cat like things that you do for your cats, right? And they apparently had gotten like ringworm or something, which can happen. But they eventually had to take all the cats to the vet. So they put all these cats in these little cat carriers, like all four to six cats in these little cat carriers, they're carrying out to the car. And she said she walks outside, and I think it's in Manhattan or something like this. She walks outside, she looks, and there's like a stray cat standing on top of a trash can with this beautiful coat, who looks real healthy, and all this. She's like, "What is happening?" You know? So yeah, that just made me think of that.

K: There's a new, there's a new Myers Briggs thing and it's INFJJ.

R: Oh my god that, I'm not familiar with that but that does make me think of, like, WWJJD.

K: Oh!

R: What would Judge Judy do?

K:  I don't remember what the first three letters are. I am INFJ, I know the last one is judging.

R: Oh, I like that!

K: One of them is introverted, but I don't remember what any of the other ones are. 

R: Yeah, I... listen. I, I don't take necessarily pride in the fact that it's easy for me to judge, but... I'm not, listen. I like, I like putting care out into the world, I like doing magnanimous things, but like I am not above being petty on occasion. And, you know, I, there's a point where you just have to be able to accept that. 

K: I always say I'm INFJ with a capital J. 

R: Ah, I love it. 

K: If you could only recommend one book to a new witch, what would it be and why? 

R: Oh, that's such a good question. Um, let's see. As you ask that I look over here to my, uh, my bookshelf. Um, I think, oh my gosh, that's such a good question. Oh, only one. I, I might say, oh... Okay, so with the caveat that I think it depends on where somebody is coming from and kind of where their interests lie. But there's one by, hang on, let me grab this here. I'm going over here, grabbing the book off the shelf. The, oh, where did she go? It's by, oh, here we go. Um... Alright, so, it's this one, um, Witchery, by either Juliet or Juliet Diaz. 

K: Yes. 

R: I think that's a good place to start. Just as a general... I don't want to say necessarily catch-all, but like as a general starting point. 

K:  Why that one?

R:  I Feel like. it's so it's really it's really approachable. It's It's not gonna be a lot of stuff that's either too heady, or like I don't say necessarily too advanced, either, but like it's It's very approachable, it's conversational. And like, I'm gonna say Juliet, Ms. Diaz, if you're out there and that's wrong, I apologize. But it's, she's third generation witch. And then it kind of covers a vast array of things as well. There's, you know, to get it from her own words here, as I flip open the front cover, there's Connecting to the Power of Your Inner Witch. There's some spell work in there. There's Amplifying Your Energy, Creating an Altar, Working With the Moon, Connecting With Ancestors. So I think it covers a lot of different areas that are useful when you're kind of walking into a practice, and not just walking in, but looking and feeling out how to create the practice that works best for you, or where you feel like either your interests lie or where you want to focus on. 
Because like, let's, let's be honest, not everyone is going to do moon work. Not everybody is going to be interested in like, you know, certain types of rituals. Not everybody's going to do everything. And that is totally okay, because that's completely not necessary. You know, if you want to coo. If not, and you want to work with certain things, that's totally cool, too. But I think it is helpful to get an overview of what the different areas are. Bearing in mind that there's going to be a lot that spans beyond that as well. You know, one of the things I was particularly interested in starting to research and learn more about is more Eastern practices. Because I think a lot of popular, "popular," quote unquote, a lot of the areas in which people focus, tend to be witchcraft and pagan ritual and stuff like that based on Western traditions. I don't really see a lot of people reference Eastern tradition pretty much ever. And I think there's a few reasons for that.
Like, for one, it's,  I think, because I was, I did one of my own podcasts with this gal who is a practitioner of, I believe it was Thai black magic, and seen differently. You know, kind of how I mentioned earlier that shamanism is not currently seen necessarily in the same way as like a big R religion, just in modern Korea and stuff like that. There is this way in which like, I don't think people necessarily look at it under the same... well, people don't look at it under the same lens. And the way that that ends up translating is that there it's, it's just kind of seen separately, I think. 
But it's definitely, you know, all of that to say that there are so many other areas and so many other facets of areas and stuff that are open for exploration, and checking out, and learning about. But it is good to get kind of a handle and an overview of kind of some of the initial known things that are practiced kind of in a broader sense. So that's, that's why I think Witchery is a fine choice for somebody who is starting off, and looking for something to read. 

K: When I'm looking into things, I do like books that tell me a little bit about a lot of things. 

R: Mhmmm, mhmmm, mhmmm. Yeah, well and I think, too, that's like that's the only way you're really going to know what from that point you want to zone in on, you know? 

K: Yeah. 

R: Yeah, yeah, no, I agree, I agree. 

K:  Everybody, and I'm gonna say everybody, I'm not even going to leave anybody out. Everybody tends to have ups and downs. How do you pull yourself out of a magical slump? 

R: I... that's a fine question. I tend to, for myself, I find, and... I answer this slowly, because I find that this is what ends up happening. And even though I know that, looking back, it's not necessarily something that I purposefully do, even though I should know better now. But I find that journaling ends up being a really really good way for me to organize my thoughts and help me get in touch with kind of some deeper things that's going on that I might not necessarily be aware of on the surface. And I say journaling, but a lot of times it presents itself as like, I start writing an angry email that might be to someone, anyone, you know, and I'll be like, "Well, I'm feeling like this." And nanananana. 
You know, and, but I do find that as I do that, as I get further along writing this, it does end up like, starting to reveal some different things about what my experience is, and what is actually going on with me. And then whether or not I opt to send that, you know, I mean sometimes yes, sometimes no, but even just the process of doing that can be revealing, and help me kind of identify "Okay, this is what I'm actually experiencing right now." So from that point, then, going further into like "Okay, what can I do to try and address this and care for myself," or make a change if that needs to happen. 

K: I too have written many an email that turned into introspection.

R: I will say like I honestly I think I would probably journal much more frequently if I just accepted the fact that these are angry letters to people who have pissed me off. 

K: Imagine the books people could put out. 

R: It would be amazing. Like people listen, people would be bursting into flames left and right. It would be wild. 

K: Who would you say, who or what would you say are the three biggest influences on your practice? 

R: So I would say the three biggest influences on my practice are Morticia Adams, number one. 

K: Oh!

R:  Franny Fisher, who if anyone is not familiar with Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries, it is absolutely worth becoming familiar with. It's a book series, but I actually became familiar because there's a show that came out of Australia, but it's this lady detective, just after World War II, I think it was, who is just not taking it. She's independent, she's sexually liberated, she is sharp, and dressing real sharp, and also a little bit older. Yeah, it's fabulous. I would highly recommend. And the third... hmm... the third, if I had to pick, I would say... I don't know. I'm not sure. Like, those are my top two that I hold as symbols of who I want to be when I grow up. I think if I had to say for the third, I might go with Jamie Lee Curtis, Lord have mercy. 

K: Hmmm.

R: Yeah, so I think, I think those three. 

K: Who would you like to see on the show answering these questions? 

R: On this show? 

K: Yeah. 

R: Jamie Lee Curtis. 

K: Is she a witch?

R:  I don't... I kind of feel like she is, but... I would say... I kind of feel like she is. I kind of feel like she is. 

K: I don't think she'd out herself if she was. 

R: Maybe not. You know how Hollywood is and stuff like that. Yeah I would say maybe, hmm, there is this one gal who I can actually, I could actually send you the information, but it's the gal that I spoke with before who is a practitioner of Thai black magic. Fantastic. 

K: I would love that. 

R: Yeah, no, she's fantastic. I can send you her information. I think she'd be a delight to speak with. 

K: Cool. Yes, please. Now for the last two things. Thing number one is please recommend something to the listeners. 

R: Ooo, yes. You know what, I'm gonna go ahead and say, uh, Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries, it is delightful. It is delightful. It is feminist as heck, um, the gal, it's just, it is- but it's also a fun watch. Um, and I will be real, like right now, in the space that I'm in, I cannot watch stuff that is going to stress me out, that is going to make me feel weird. I need something that I'm going to be able to watch and enjoy and feel nice after. You know, I liken it to there was one time I had back when this was a more popular thing, I guess I had people ask me if I was watching Breaking Bad and I was like, Oh, is it stressful? They're like, yes, very. I'm like, why would I do this to myself? Listen, I am stressed out enough as it is. I don't need to add, I get very invested in stuff that I'm watching and all this. Yeah, so I would recommend Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries. I think it is delightful. It's fantastic. I've only read one of the books. I have a couple other ones. I'd start with the show because it's really easy to get into. It is enjoyable and it feels nice. 

K: And for the last thing, please tell me a story that you love to tell. 

R: Oh, oh, so. This, this, hands down. So I was part of a filming for a, oh my god, pilot. Lord have mercy. I was filming for a pilot for this paranormal show that is still in progress, so I can't talk too much about the show itself. It's still being edited for its unveiling? But essentially the the premise of the show is- It's a paranormal show. Ghost hunting and all this, you know. But it takes a really cool lens and it it does some stuff that I've not seen done in other places. But for this particular episode, we were in Tennessee and we were investigating the Bell Witch. Who... 

K: Ooo! 

R: Yeah, so for anyone who's not familiar, it's... she's a famous ghost. But also the, I think, first... there's probably been other ones since then, but the first ghost who historically is reported to have killed someone. And so, we're out there, we're exploring this, and then went to the town where all this happened, and this little museum there, and talked to this guy and stuff, and then went and did a couple, interviewed various people around this area, and then did a couple woodsy moments and stuff like this. 
And so we, it culminated, the final piece to this was, I would be doing a ritual to kind of contact said witch, or I guess at this point spirit, in the woods. And so we go, we go to this, god I forget what the, it was a national park. It's a pretty big known national park out there. If you're from Tennessee, you'll know. Maybe. So we go to this, you know how a lot of national parks have just like a walking path you can go on? So we go on this, and it's probably about 100 feet in. Like if you turn around and look back, you can see the entrance to the forest, you can see the parking lot. We're not, by any means, in the middle of the woods or anything. 
But and it's nighttime, and I had prepared for this moment, you know, I got all my stuff, got my things and all this. And so somebody had brought along some salt. And so I did a little bit of a circle around myself, which, as an aside, little asterisk, footnote, generally speaking, if you're going to be doing stuff in the woods, and you need a protection circle, usually doing crushed eggshell is going to be better than salt because salt interacts with plant life and things like that. But just take that little tidbit with you as you move forward. But this instance somebody brought salt so that's what I had. So I do this little bit of a salt circle on myself and I had my... I started... we had done this other one before, where somebody had given a spell of capturing the wind in this jar, and then you put it under your pillow, and you know, you take stock of what dreams you end up having that night and stuff. And so this, before actually summoning any sorts of spiritual stuff, like actually letting the wind out of the jar, and then pouring one out for it in thanks. So initially, the people I was with, the other hosts of the show had gone, gone and stopped by and got a can of wine. Because they couldn't find any...

K: A can?!

R: Yeah a little can of wine, Because they couldn't find any rum in the house. They got a little can of wine. So the first thing I did, I set my stuff up, I made my circle, I had my little, my little bowl of water in front. It's one I got off Etsy, it's this vintage piece, it's like tin I think I want to say? But it has the alphabet around the outside. And it initially was made for children, but I was like, oh cool. So I've got that, I've got some of my stones in there and stuff like that. And I have, you know, I downloaded a compass app on my phone so I can get all the cardinal directions and stuff. I put my little incense sticks and stuff. 
So the first thing I do is, I say some words for this jar, and I open up the jar and I wave it around, and then I pour out the can of wine. I'm like, yes, thank you for being here on this adventure. May you have many more. So then, I take and I start doing my thing, right? And at this point it's dark, you know, it's, I think there's, the people have like a couple lights. There's one cameraman, there's the two hosts, and then there's one of the host's partner who is running sound. So I'm doing my thing. I'm saying some words, I'm moving all about, you know, and I'm lighting this incense. I light the first incense and I go, I think the first one I did was north, I believe. 
But then I start I go to the next one, I'm starting to light another incense and such like this. And then, and then I hear somebody's like, "There's a snake!" and I look over, and there on my, and I'm in the middle of this path, but on my left side where the path ends, and it's you can tell where the path is and where the Foliage starts, and all this there's this pretty mature looking copperhead just kind of hanging just Just sniggling around, just wiggling all over the place, you know, and like, just scooching, scooching on the forest floor.
And I knew, I knew that it was copperhead because one of my previous podcast episodes that I had done, I interviewed a friend of mine who was doing this research on local copperheads.

K:  Yay! I love stuff like that. 

R: Yeah, so, but also, to that end, like, you know, in doing this with her and stuff, like, I know at this point that, like, you know, they... Listen. Don't, don't, just, words to live by. Don't go and bother wildlife, you know? I mean, just leave it alone. Wildlife doesn't want it. But they're actually a lot more chill than I think a lot of people think. You know, they're not going to fly out of a tree and just latch onto your face. They kind of just want to be left alone, you know? 
So I see it like wiggling around over there, slithering, slithering about. But it's pretty long. It's like a three-footer, right? And so it's just like scooching. And I stop what I'm doing. I turn around. I'm like, "Oh my God, it's a little snaky baby! You know. And the one host was like 'No! Fox, you stay in the circle! You stay in the circle, you stay there." I was like fine, fine, whatever. And so one of them, one of the hosts takes over snake watching duty on that side to make sure that the snake's not gonna like fly off the ground and just latch onto someone's face I guess. So I go back to what i'm doing i'm like okay here we go, you know. It's continuing on with this. And then at one point, they're like, "It's coming back!" you know, and I look, and it was interesting because it's, it's going about over there. 
And then it, it starts to come toward where I am. And it like, when I first thought it was coming over toward me, and it starts to come toward where I am. And as soon as I make eye contact, like it kind of goes in a different direction. It's like, "Meh, no, maybe not." You know, so, so I'm doing this, and then I get to the third, which I believe in this instance was south, but so help me, I don't remember if that's totally accurate. I get to the third incense and I'm like doing, doing the business with it. And then the other host, I hear 'There's another snake!" And so like, on the other side of the path, there's, this one I didn't actually see, but apparently on the other side of the path, there's another snake hanging out doing just, snake things. And so the two of them are watching these snakes on either side. And I, so help me, I'm trying to finish, like, I light the other incense, I'm trying to do a thing. 
You know, I'm, I'm trying to get in the zone. I'm trying to do the business, you know, but they're, they are, they are uncomfortable. They're not happy with the situation. And so they're, they're talking and stuff like that, and I'm like, this is very distracting. And also, also, bless him, the cameraman, we had been having a meal like the night before or something, or the day before, lunch, something like that. And like, we've been talking about like, oh, so how you know, like, how's the experience been for you so far and stuff like that. And he had shared that like, he's not afraid of ghosts, he's not afraid of stuff like that, but there is one thing he is really afraid of. And to the point to where, when he met his wife, she apparently has a big snake tattoo on her back and he even had a problem with that. Because this thing is snakes. And he is not into it. So they asked, they're like, "Oh my God, how are you doing?" 
And he's like, ugh. And at a certain point, at a certain point, the person who's running sound is like, "Nope. You know what? I'm not into this anymore. I'm leaving." So they start back down the path to leave the foresty area. And the, the, the one snake that I had seen, actually starts going alongside this person. They're like, "Yes, let me chaperone you to leave this place," you know. And eventually the other people were like, yeah, we're going to leave and stuff like that. I, and they were all saying they felt very unwelcome, like they felt like they weren't, shouldn't be there and stuff like that. I, I'm a forest person, right? Like I, that that's my jam. And like I I'm not alarmed by wildlife either. 
So I wasn't super upset by this. And like, I did not feel like I shouldn't be there, and I wanted to stay longer and kind of do some stuff. And, but they were very uncomfortable, and I am a friend first, you know. So I was like all right, you know. Let me get my stuff together and I'll come with you guys out there,because they were they were super worried. So I got my stuff together, we go back out. That was pretty much how that unfolded. A couple notes that make this a little more interesting, however, is that the, I ended up, the one host brought this up, and I still have this to this day. The wine can is one that she had selected because it looked cool, but this wine can had snakes all over it. 
And like, we're talking about it in the car, and like, you know, realistically, pour the snake wine out and the snakes are like, oh fuck yeah, wine! Snake wine! You know, so they're just, they just show up and they're like, "Yeah, yo, we're here for the party, you know, I don't understand why can't I have this wine?" But then the night before, because this actually happened the day after my birthday. The night before, we had done a thing where everyone pulled a tarot... I don't think this was actually official tarot, but it was like an Oracle deck. And everyone just pulled one card. And then the card that I had gotten, well, I forget what the actual word on the card was, but it had, like, on one side I think it was a lion, on the other side was... maybe a horse? I don't really remember. It was something else, it was not a lion. But then in the middle was, and I forget the name of it, it's the medical staff with the two snakes wound around it. 

K: Something Esclalala.

R:  Yeah, whatever it is. But that had been the one I drew the night before. So also like with the two snakes on it and stuff. So all that was particularly interesting. Yeah, so that was my, that was my snake venture. I like, and I would have loved to stay out there and like, kind of spend some more time. And, you know, for the for the skeptical, and too, like if this was early August. Which once you get into late August and October, that is Copperhead mating season, but it was still a little early for that. To the point to where also like, them engaging this much with a, to be honest, loud group of people, with like lights and stuff, like that was still pretty unusual, you know? Like right there in that moment. So that I thought was pretty cool. 

K: And they got a lot of that right on the video? 

R: Oh, they got all of it. Yeah, they got all of it. So I'm super excited to see that.  And maybe seeing it from another perspective will help. Because from my perspective, I was like, "Oh, what a cool experience. I feel so welcome. I feel this is so me," you know. Whereas from them, it's just like, "The forest wants us to leave. We need to get out of here right now." Which, I had talked to my husband after this, and I was like, "Come on now, man. If two snakes suddenly came up and rose onto their little snake butts and started speaking to you, would you not engage with them?" And he was like, "No! No, I would not! Because they could be like demons or something like that." I'm like, "Listen."

K:  I'm talking to the snake. 

R: Well, like, and also it's like, think about, I, because I just imagine in that scenario, the snakes come out and like, let's say they are demons, right? Let's say they're demons dressed up in snake suits and they come out and they're like, yes, this is what needs to happen. Like, girl, I open up my trench coat, I pull out suitcases, I'm like, all right, here we go, I'm ready to come with you. They're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on. We weren't saying, you're not coming with us. Oh, yeah, nope, too late, I'm ready. You know, like, so, so, yeah. But that was probably my coolest moment, I think, that I've, that especially had some, like, a physical manifestation that also like had all these other links and stuff like that. I thought it was really cool.

K: That's cool. Also, the fact that it's a can of wine will never not be funny to me. 

R: Like I, you know, you know, like, because she initially gave me this can, because they had gotten in touch with somebody else who I, who I know and talked about this like, you know, spell getting the wind in the jar. And this person, they were like, oh, that's a spirit. You got a spirit in that jar. 
 You need to get like rum or hard liquor to give as an offering when you release it. But the store they went to apparently just didn't have any of that. So it was Can o' Wine Time. Which, you know, I, hey, listen, I guess maybe you're not as picky if you're a spirit. 

K: Oh my gosh. I love everything about that. I can imagine, though, the voiceover that they're going to do about the snake, snakes appearing, and the music. And it's not going to be, look at these snakes in the woods. It's going to be, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. "The snakes appeared." 

R: Yeah, you know, and, right, you know, and like, just the amount that like, because apparently when we first were arriving there in the car is like, apparently they saw like these bats and stuff like that, and they were real... Yeah, but it's interesting to me also because like that same singular event can be so, can be such a different experience for different people, you know? Like, I have all this happen, I see all this wildlife and stuff I'm like, "Oh my goodness what a fantastic and magical moment!"  and then there's this poor guy with the camera who that is, that, he, I don't know if he's snake phobic but like it's it gets pretty close you know and it's like this is like his worst nightmare manifesting you know, so.

K: Poor dude.

R:  I know I that I did feel bad about though. cuz he couldn't just stop and leave either 

K: And I will see you on the internet! Bye. 

R: Take care. 

K: Rockette.

R: Yes. 

K: Welcome to Patreon. 

R: Thank you. Thank you. *fade out*

K: *fade in* What woodland animal would you want to be? 

K: Oh man, I feel like if I didn't say a fox I'd be lying... I feel, probably like a fox, and if not a fox, a raccoon. And specifically raccoons have like fingers which I think would be really helpful. Like the the thing I always come across when I'm thinking about, you know, being animals and stuff, is like "Man I love having thumbs", and you know raccoons have got those little thumbs. So, but like, realistically, who I probably, and I wouldn't mind this either. And actually, maybe this would be my pick. I don't know, I have a few picks. *fade out*

K: To hear more of the Patreon episode, head over to patreon.com/cleverkimscurios for a free 7-day trial. The $5 tier will give you podcast bonuses, videos, recipes, access to the Marco Polo and Facebook groups, and more. There are also tiers starting at $10 where you can get spell boxes, intentional handcrafted jewelry that I make especially for witches, and there's even a special crystal tier. Check it out at patreon.com/cleverkimscurios. Thanks for listening to this episode of Your Average Witch. You can find us all around the internet on Instagram @youraveragewitchpodcast, facebook at facebook.com/youraveragewitchpodcast, at YourAverageWitch.com, and at your favorite podcast service. Want to help the podcast grow? Leave a review! You can review us on Amazon and Apple podcasts, and now you can rate us on Spotify. You just might hear your review read at the end of an episode. To rate Your Average Witch on Spotify, click the home key, click on Your Average Witch Podcast, and then leave a rating. If you'd like to recommend someone for the podcast, like to be on it yourself, or if you'd like to advertise on the podcast, send an email to youraveragewitchpodcast at gmail.com. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next Tuesday.