In this episode I talk to Sam Thompson of Ravens Keep Forge. Sam and I talk about the inherent magic of metal, how deity can keep you up at night, and how 1 plus 1 can equal 3. He tells us a little about growing up in Appalachia and invites you to an immersive magical metal experience where he leads you through creating your own magical metal tools at his shop, Ravens Keep Forge.
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Be sure and check out this week's sponsor, Hearth & Stitch for witchy cloaks, skirts, and other stitched witchery!
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Sam Thompson of Ravens Keep Forge.
Metal Magic; Metal Never Lies
Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where we meet every Tuesday to talk about witch life, witch stories, and sometimes a little witchcraft. In this episode I talk to Sam of Ravens Keep Forge. Sam and I talk about the inherent magic of metal, how deity can keep you up at night, and how one plus one can equal three. Before we get started, here's a word from this week's sponsor, Hearth and Stitch. Are you feeling witchy but can't take the broom with you? Hearth and Stitch has just the thing to have you walking out of the house feeling your bad ass witchy self. Zoom on over to their shop at hearthandstitch.com. Peruse their many cloaks, witchy skirts, and even head scarves. As we all know, you can never own too many cloaks. The designer puts her best work into every item she makes, from choosing quality materials like premium cotton, linen, microsuede, and micro velvet, to adding details like serging seams and double folding every hem. And pockets will be coming soon!
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Kim: Good morning, Bo. Welcome to the show.
Bo: Hey, that almost kind of rhymed. Cool.
K: After many technical difficulties, I'm glad to have you on. And would you please introduce yourself, let everybody know who you are and what you do and how they can find you?
B: Okay. I am Sam or Bo. I go by, go by both. I am in the foothills of North Carolina and I grew up in Western North Carolina deep Appalachia. So my accent may, may kind of wander here a bit. So just kind of hang on with me. Anyway, to get in touch with me is real easy, I think. It's Raven's Keep Forge. I'm a magical blacksmith. So everything is tied to my smithy, which is dedicated to the Morrigan. So it's Raven's with an S, Keep ,KEEP, Forge. That's at Gmail, tag on Facebook, Instagram, Patreon, YouTube. You can't find me, you ain't looking. There, how about that?
K: Now what... you're the, honestly, the way I found you was Byron Ballard's post where she was in a coffee shop or in a, one of the shops where she works in. And she mentioned you being there and I got really excited because I'm a jeweler. So I like working with metal, and you do metal magic. So I was really excited.
B: Yeah. I know, I tease Byron because I knew her before she was cool. Right. We go back about 20, 20 something years or thereabouts more. So yeah, I was actually doing a book signing there in Asheville, and it just gave me a good excuse to have lunch with Byron and my Beloved. We were all just kind of joking and we just like to have a good time together. I've known her forever.
K: What made you choose metal for your magic?
B: Well, I'm, by trade, I'm a professional blacksmith. So yeah, it's like I tell everybody else- everyone wants to do country stuff until it's time to do country stuff. It sounds cool until you know, anyway, yes, as I got in more and more working with metal within a magical framework, these little thoughts and pings kept showing up. And I'm a dedicated priest to the Morrigan. So she was working pretty hard with me on it, especially as I was studying the lore. Because that's the best way to learn about it, a thing, is actually study their lore. And I kept seeing these little blitz pop up within the lore about metal, and magic, and how they are animate. And being an animist myself, it started making sense. And it was like one of those blinding flashes of the obvious, right? It's like, oh, well, gee, that's easy. Because I mean, we have metal with, the metal that I work with, we already have in us. You know, it's a physical makeup of our bodies. So we already had, we already have a natural connection to them. So working with them magically is more like working with a part of yourself instead of it being just an inanimate tool, it becomes an animate ally. I don't know if that makes sense or not. For... like iron. Find somebody that has, you know, no iron in their body, and they're in, they're dead, right? So you got to have it to live, literally.
K: That's one of the things I thought was really cool in your book that I hadn't considered before. Because well, for me, it was copper because I work with copper a lot.
B: Yes. And copper is the same way. I mean, without copper, your body doesn't absorb the iron.
K: But The fact that we already have it in us, that was, that really grabbed me. And I thought, oh, I love things that make me look at stuff differently.
B: Thank you. Yeah. It was the same way with when I was like, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Hold up. You know, and bronze and brass is the same way, that the minerals that make up that also, you know, those alloys we also have.
K: I love it. It's fascinating.
B: Yeah. I'd be in down this rabbit hole all day long. I'm still figuring it out.
K: What would you say makes you call yourself a witch?
B: I think I probably prefer more magical worker than I do witch. I think because even now, which is still such a... I've been pagan for 30 something years, right? So I've seen a lot, done a lot, been through a lot. And I think sometimes when we label things, we automatically put them in a box. So I think I like magic work. So it's, to me, it's just, it's an easier concept for me to wrap my arms around. Does that make sense?
K: Yeah.
B: See when I hear witch, I think, like Practical Magic, right? "Witch, witch, you're a witch!" You know, and I just...
K: That's kind of why I ask this question, because not everybody does call themselves a witch.
B: I like sorcerer. That just kind of has that air, you know, yes, you shall not pass. You know, yeah. No, magic work is just fine.
K: Sorcerer is too highbrow for what I feel like I do.
B: Thank you. Yeah. Don't be putting on airs now! No offense to anybody that calls themselves a sorcerer.
K: No, absolutely not. But I just go out in the garden and pick stuff up and throw it in a thing. I don't, I don't sorcel.
B: Just not, I just, it's just not my thing, you know, not, not everybody needs a pick up truck, you know what I'm saying? So you know.
K: Do you have any family history with witchcraft, or or magic working?
B: You know, I like I said, I grew up deep Appalachia. So yes, but it just wasn't call that.
K: Yeah.
B: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, I grew up primitive Southern Baptist. So, you know, there was a lot of the, the, the pentacostal type part of it. You know, they were, they were very, my people were very active, right? They were active participants. It was full contact preaching, you know?
K: Did they get up in the pulpit and yell at you about how you were going to go straight to hell?K: My granddad did that.
B: Yep. You know, and I grew up close to an Indian reservation, not Cherokee, it was Snowbird. And, you know, so I had a lot of, there was a lot of influence in from, from the first people, my foster mom was, was one. So there was a lot of those influences and it was just a more of this, this is, this is the way, right? It wasn't, if you don't know any different, you don't know no different, right?
K: Exactly.
B: So, you know, was, was there? I'm sure, you know, at the time I just didn't, you know, I didn't think of it. It was just, just how, how we did things. You know, you planted by this month, you know, you harvest by this month, you know, this is how you, you know, when was the best time to weed? It's just, that's just how you did stuff. It's just how it's done. So, yeah, in a roundabout way, there's an answer.
K: Did you use the Farmer's Almanac?
B: Yes, I think quite a bit, you know, because I think it was just something that once again, it was just, you know, we got one in our Christmas stocking.
K: Oh, man, I never got that!
B: Yeah, along with an orange, you know, yeah, in the, you know...
K: In the toe.
B: No the toe was the chocolate, because that was the best part. Right? So you got a piece of good chocolate, and there was a couple of oranges in there, grapefruit, you know, and the Farmer's Almanac.
K: Huh. I can't flash back that far. I'll get distracted.
B: Nobody will understand us.
K: Do you have any, it doesn't have to be daily, because I, I have barely have a daily practice myself, but do you have any regular practice that you do regularly?
B: Oh, gosh. Most, most, most definitely, you know, every morning, like I said, I am a priest of the Morrigan and every morning, I spend time in devotion to her every morning. It's part of my, it's part of my devotion to her as being a priest for her. Right after I feed the cats. Okay.
K: That is the first thing I do too.
B: There is no solitude until the cats are fed, and I feed them, and then I spend, you know, probably at least 15, some mornings, five, some mornings, half an hour, you know, but, you know, I spend time every morning and like clockwork. It's the first thing I do before I make coffee every day, is I spend time in devotion to her, because I think without her, the rest of it doesn't really make that much sense. For me. Just the way that our relationship is, and I realize that everybody has a different relationship with her. She's a shapeshifting goddess, and she shows up however she wants to. So I think, you know, working on that relationship and what that looks like, and it's changed over the last six years. But yes, I think because I think that gives me that connection, you know, to why I'm here, you know, that gives me that connection to a purpose, that gives me that connection to being grounded and getting my day started. You know, I kind of equate it to, you know, those mornings you wake up and, you know, you kick something when you first wake up and go, Oh, God, today is going to suck. And then everything reinforces throughout the day, right?
K: I feel that today.
B: And to me, with her, that kind of gives me that neutral ground, right? So, you know, this is my baseline. This is where I'm starting, you know, no matter what happens today, I've got this. And I think that, you know, for me, it's imperative that I do that, not only because, you know, it's my bond, right? It's my word with her, but I think it just helps me better course-correct my day starting off that way.
K: I'm curious, because I think everybody does this differently. And you don't have to answer because I also understand how privacy works. But what, when you say time and devotion, you know, what does mean?
B: If you're gonna ask a question, you're getting an answer.
K: What does- Even if it's no!
B: Right.
K: What, what does that look like, spending time, in devotion?
B: Okay. So with my practice, what I do is I start out with very first thing, I have a copper cup that I made for her that I, I fill with water every morning. So I give her water every morning. And there's also a piece of black walnut that I carved as a kind of lack of a better word kind of a shot glass, right? And I'll put whiskey in it, whiskey without the e, right? So it's scotch. Yes, she's an Irish goddess. I understand that, but my drink of choice is scotch. And it's my favorite scotch that I give her because I'm right now not imbibing, because of some tasks that she has me do. And I can't do it while I drink. So right now I'm not drinking. So that is a sacrifice for me every morning to start my day smelling scotch. The elixir of the gods, right? Why not? Or is it life water? Actually, what it means? Anyway, water of life. Anyway, so that, I light a candle. I usually light some incense. And then I actually have prayer beads that I recant her names that she's been called throughout the lore. Not all of them, because you know, my memory's not that good. But there's something that would ever come to mind as far as what I feel that I need from her that day. The things that bring me strength, comfort, you know, broadness, whatever. And that's how I, that's what my practice is. And then I just sit in that space and just, I don't know, for lack of a better word, just marinate a little bit, you know? I spend time by myself alone with her.
K: That sounds so interesting and so foreign to me at the same time, but also sort of similar to what I do.
B: It's the same but not.
K: I don't have a connection with deity. So I don't, it's fascinating to me to hear how it affects other people.
B: And I'm, I'm going to be, you know, full disclosure is, up until about six years ago, I didn't either. I was really happy not. You know, I mean, it was cool just, you know, kind of diddybopping along, you know, just kind of playing where I wanted to play. But, you know, that this was not my choice. Once again, this is kind of where I'm at.
K: Well, I'm going to, what a great segue to the next question, which is how has witchcraft changed your life?
B: How can it not? Okay, let me see if I can, how to go best, how I want to answer this. You know, I think a lot, a lot of times, you know, witchcraft is, is a state of mind. I think a lot of times. I think for me, now, for me, most of my magic involves my metalwork. I don't do a lot of, I'm doing bunny quotes, right? Air quotes, a lot of "magic." Myself personally and in my life, as it involves my personal space and my Beloved it. You know, we've got, you know, our wards up and, you know, the, you know, personal protective devices, right? That I have up, but other than that, you know, I don't work a lot of magic other than with my metal. Because the way I see my life is I'm a, I'm a provider of tools for others to do their magic. So that's how my magic works.
K: So you are, in essence, a tool yourself.
B: I have been called worse, yes.
K: I was wondering if that was going to sneak in there.
B: Hey, that's what she said!
K: Hey, that's one of my favorite stupid jokes.
B: And, and we say it way too many times in this house. Yeah, I love every minute. It never gets old.
K: That and "Your mom." Both of those, your mom and that's what she said, are both old favorites of mine. What would you say is the biggest motivator in your practice?
B: Making a difference. Making a positive difference. You know, I like to think that those that I, I touch, those that spend time briefly, however briefly that is where we, our circles cross, right? I actually wrote a blog post about that first, you know, first of the month. My, I don't like New Year's resolutions, but I have something that I am going to do this year that I'm making commitment for this year to, to change is that is I want to change my interaction with, with community. And I think you do that obviously one person at a time. So I just, I see community as overall right now as becoming very isolated. You know, I don't know if that's pandemic. I don't, I don't care what the cause is. I just know what it is. And I, I would like to see it more unified. You know, it seems like there's a lot of diversity, there's a lot of diversity, but it's within silos. Yeah, there's no overlapping. And I had a mentor one time talk to me about anytime that you, you and I, right, Kim? We're having this interaction, right? So we have something that's unique to us that only you and I have now, right? So there's a, the formula is one plus one equals three. Right? So we've got me myself, we've got you yourself, and then we've got what we are creating together.
K: Okay.
B: Okay. I'm drawing it out, but you can't see that, right? So it's one plus one equals three.
K: I can see it in my head. I'm just afraid of math, so...
B: So if you think of two circles that, that that overlap just a little bit, right? So you've got two circles and you kind of push them together. And then there's that little whatever that-
K: The venn diagram thing in the middle?
B: Thank you, whatever that is, a little oblong thing in the middle, right? So that's what we have. That's the third thing, right? And then if you add in community, you actually add in another complete circle, right? Because community is usually more than two people. And then if you look next, that's actually going to be my January moonbling. This is if you add another circle to the two, you actually get one of those, it's not a tristicle that's right here. That's right.
K: Triquetra or something?
B: That's right. Or something. Yeah. Whatever. I don't, I don't speak English.
K: I was thinking the seed of life thing about that, that circle, like that isn't it five? whatever. I'm seeing a bunch of petals in circles.
B: Yeah. What if you do just the three and that you've got them set up just right and then you've got the, the, the, the, tri things. Yes. And it's a perfect match. I've got it forged out. I'm going to actually be announcing it this, this week as we talk for this month's moonbling. Because I do a community forge once a month on a moon, whether it be dark or full, depending on what's going on. And it's always something unique. And it's not something that I have in my shop on a regular basis. It's something unique just to that. And it's the way that we're all connected. It's all made out of the same piece of metal. So no matter where you live, you, you buy this piece of, usually it's dependent, but I've made other things too. But everything's connected, right? So you're, everyone is connected by this one unique piece of metal, no matter where you are on the planet. That's forged at the same time. That's brought in.
K: That is cool.
B: So I've done pendants, I've done candle scribes, I've done, you know, dishes, you know, candle dishes or offering dishes. And that's actually what's going to be this month's. So you hear it here first before you get it anywhere else. It'll be done over the dark moon for new beginnings. You know, hopefully that is, you know, let's work on our community is what we have alike, you know, focus on our similarities, you know, the object of the exercises. What do we want to accomplish together? Let's focus on these things versus so much of what our differences are. Because I think if we focus a lot on what we have in common, then our differences won't be a huge deal as we're making them, if that makes sense.
K: What would you say is your biggest struggle with your practice? Being, it's kind of the same thing, being a part of the community. You know, I'm happy at an age, you know, I'm mid 50s, pushing 60. I'm happy being a hermit. Very happy being a hermit. And that is not where I'm supposed to be right now. You know, it was given to me that I was spending too much time as a ship at harbor. Right. A ship is safe at harbor. Right. With the pictures. I think in pictures. And it was the picture that I was in one of my meditations when I was given. I was like, oh, cool. Yeah. A ship's safe in harbor. And then dawned on me that that's not what ships are for.
K: Mm-hmm.
B: So...
K: I love that saying.
B: Yeah. So that being said, my biggest struggle is being out within community. I've been vice president and president of a CUUPS chapter. I've been involved in and community of help with back in the early 2000s, helped with leadership conferences, you know, mid-Atlantic region. And even within my state of North Carolina. And just it's a community. Community can be tiring. You know. One of my friends says that it's like herding cats. The trick is just to open a can of tuna fish and throw it in a room and shut the door. I, you know, so that's my biggest struggle. Because what I'm working on, I guess that's why it's my kind of challenge this year.
K: Huh. I'm still thinking about the cat imager.
B: That's how you herd cats, right? You know, you get them to get them together.
K: That is exactly how I make them do what I want them to do. So we have two kittens and that's how we move them around.
B: We're, regardless of what what Nickelback says, food's the answer.
K: What brings you the most joy in your practice?
B: Oh, having people get a, an item, I call it forge bling, right? BLING, forge bling. Having them get a piece of forge bling and "get it". You know, holding on to something that's inanimate and then realize that it's not, you know, that, that it is alive. That brings me the most joy. You know, all the work that I do up to that point, you know, makes it worth it. Because in my, in my smithy, I'm a, what I call a primi- I call myself a primitive magical blacksmith. Because there's nothing in my smithy that I don't intimately touch, right? The fuel for the forge is charcoal, and it's charcoal that I make. And I go to the point of I actually collect the wood, split it, cut it, stack it, dry it and cook it, right? So I make my own charcoal that fuels the forge. So I know where the trees come from. The metal is all repurposed that I usually go to a scrap yard to gather. So it has a story, right? So I go for all this work, and then, you know, it, it transforms from what it was to what it now is, and then someone receives that and go, "Oh, I get it. This is great. This feels good." You know, it makes sense now. That brings me the most joy.
K: I'm just going to throw in, when I was reading the book and you started talking about the scrap yard. I just felt like such a kindred spirit because that is one of my favorite places to go.
B: It's like I'm like a kid in candy store.
K: Yeah, it's like Disneyland. There's so many possibilities.
B: Yes. What do you want to be? You know, I know what you were, but what do you want to be?
K: So everybody go by his book right now, and then you'll know what we're talking about.
B: Yeah, so I don't know. Look just kind of so it's out there, it's "Metal Never Lies: An Introduction to Metal Magic." And it's written in a way to where you don't have to be a metal worker to do it. I think it's written that way or it is now written, It wasn't started, It didn't start out that way, but it ended up that way, I think, to where you anybody can do metal magic. It's not just for metal workers. I think everybody should do metal magic. If you have pots in your kitchen, you can do metal magic. All right.
K: I liked that exercise where you had us go through the house and find things that we don't think about, but we still use.
B: Well, I think, you know, once things become common, they're no longer seen.
K: Yeah.
B: You know, and that's not just metal. It's a pretty much anything. You know, rearrange your house and all of a sudden you have a brand new house just because you see it differently.
K: In fact, when I sat down here this morning before I turned a computer on. I made a little stand because I'm trying to redo my setup. This is probably not interesting to anybody other than someone who works with metal and maybe my patrons. I made myself a little stand because I have a ring light and a webcam and I'm in a very small space. So I was like, well, I got metal in the back. I'll just fold it up a little bit and put some holes in it. And then I have a stand that I can attach to the wall. And one, I'm pleased with myself because I figured it out. And two, I have a new piece of metal that I can look at and touch as I'm, and I've been staring at it this whole time. It's cool to see things in my life that I didn't, it didn't occur to me could have magic involved.
B: Well, I mean, there's so much, and we, we, you know, a lot of times they're, they're quote unquote tools, right? We're back to the tool thing. You know, but if you're using an athame in your practice, most likely it's metal. You know, there are some that aren't, but most likely it's metal. Wouldn't it be nice to actually have an intimate connection with that? You know, so now you have an ally versus a tool that you put to the side until you need it. Does that make sense?
K: Yes, I love it.
B: You know, I mean, how much more enriched could your practice be? You know, the candle dish, I have a dish, right, under candles, because my candles leak. It, I can put a seven day candle and it would still leak, right? The ones in the glasses, but they're metal, right? So to me, it's a great way to add magic into my practice, right? Because you can take a grease pencil and write on the metal a word that you want to use, that you want to kind of help with your lighting of the candle and then you check your candle on top of it. And you've got now an ally that's helping you with your work, versus it just all being you. I mean, if you just want to be you, go, go be you, but I don't, you know, I think many hands make light work. You know? Why not involve everything into my practice instead of it just being me. Just my two cents.
K: I love having this podcast because so many little things like that, I have so many little tricks that might sleeve now from talking to people. Hopefully everybody who listens does too.
B: I think it's important because we've lost our connection since like the the industrial revolution, it was just an important part of and we'll go back to that word, to to community, right? Because it was it was a precious thing. It wasn't, you know, a novelty item. And I think the things that are precious, you view them differently. You have a different relationship with them. You know, a precious dish from your grandparents, you know, has a lot of memories attached to it and that means, and it has value to you. Well it's the same, it can be the same thing with metal, right? Whether it's your grandfather's pocket watch or a pocket knife, you know, I'm showing my Appalachian roots, because I have my grandfather's pocket knives, you know, me, me and my cousins wrestled over them. But to have, to create these legacy items that you can pass on along past you that'll have your energy and your stories attached to it, you know. It talks within the the second Battle of Moyturra, you know, about one of the Tuatha Dé Danann's kings, right? Picking up the adversaries', I'm paraphrasing this instead of getting into it too deep because I could be here for a while. He pulls out, he gets his sword, unsheaths it and cleans it and then the sword tells the story of everything that had happened with it. That's magic.
K: Yes.
B: You know, and it was, and that's not just, that's like not an uncommon thing with it. You know, so anyway, yeah, I will be here all day talking about this stuff. I'll be all jacked up on Mountain Dew before we're done.
K: Oh, no. I had caffeinated koolaid, I'm not going to pretend like I'm not imbibing myself. What is something you did early on in your practice that you don't do anymore, and why did you stop?
B: There's so much I don't do. I'm not a ceremonial. You know, I guess I'm more comfortable. You know...
K: Are we cousins?
B: Probably!
K: Because that's what I thought. I don't do rituals.
B: Well, now I do ritual. I just don't do ceremony. I, ritual, by that, what I mean is, I take the time, you know, if we're honoring seasons or obviously, you know, whenever I forge and I'm making magical items, I'm in ritual space. I set space, sacred space for that. But I don't do the ceremony of necessarily, you know, calling the watchtowers of the north and all that kind of... I'm high magic or whatever. It's, to me, I don't really-
K: I definitely don't do that.
B: I don't do a lot of that ceremony. You know, gotta have the right dress, gotta have stuff laid out just right and certain colors go with certain wherever. I'm much more relaxed in my, in that practice now.
K: Do you speak out loud when you do things?
B: Um, yes and no. I talk, I mean, I, for, I, for it, I talk to the metal, right? I mean, it's a conversation.
K: With your mouth or your brain? This is just me being curious.
B: Well, I mean, I do both, you know, I think it's just I don't know that I intentionally do one over the other. It just, you know, I know my Beloved would be walking by and say, :What are you talking, who are you talking to?" I say I'm talking to the metal.
K: I think if, when I talk to it, it's usually why are you doing that? Please, please stop, please stop doing that.
B: Well, see, that was the lesson. Yeah, um, I've learned to ask, this is what I want, who wants to be that? And that makes my forging a lot easier because I will gravitate to those items that want that, that metal that wants to be that. Because I spent a lot of time making things that they did not want to be. And we-
K: That's probably where I am.
B: And, you know, that whole, I fought the law and the law won, right? So there was a lot of, okay, we, you're not going to be that so let's set you aside and find somebody that does. I know it sounds really kind of, it's true. That's all I got to say.
K: It doesn't sound kind of anything. It sounds like what I should be doing because it was saving me time and effort.
B: Yeah, it's a learning process. You know, it's once again, it's trying to, you know, work with, with, within, once again, if you're, if you're, if I'm creating magic and I want to create a magical piece, I want buy in from everything that's going on, right? To create the best piece possible. And starting out a relationship forcing something to be, that it doesn't want to be, is not the right way I want to start a relationship. Right?
K: Yeah, I mean I hear people all the time say, when you go out to your garden, you should be asking, is it okay if I take this? So why wouldn't we do it with metal? Why wouldn't my friend who is a potter? Why wouldn't she ask the clay, hey, is, is this what we're going to do today?
B: Yeah, well, what are we going to do today? I mean, there are times I don't have an agenda when I go to the forge. I just know I need to do stuff.
K: Those are the frustrating times for me.
B: It can be, you know, but it's also, I've created some really cool stuff, but co-created, right? Because I'm just an active participant. You know, so a lot of times it's like, oh, wow, really? That's, so that's how that's done. You know, I learned a lot. I get taught. You know, I don't have it all figured out. You know, the thing that I figured out is I ain't got it all figured out, right? You know, I, I, hey, y'all watch this. I've learned enough by doing that to, don't do that.
K: That just makes me think of fireworks and beer.
B: Yep. I'm, I'm, I'm slow, I'm not stupid. You know, I mean, it hurts when I do that. Then stop doing that!
K: What would you say is your favorite tool for, for magic?
B: For magic.
K: I forgot who I was talking to.
B:My favorite tool for magic. Um, gosh, I would probably be, um, my candle scribe. That are like, you know what?
K: Hmmm. That is not what I expected you to say.
B: Candle scribe. Probably that, either that or my Ogham. Because I've crafted a set of copper ogham, all of that, well, I mean, what, what else would I make? Right. So I create them a copper bronze and steel and I like, my set is, it's copper and I love them. I love copper. I love steel too. And bronze is awesome.
K: Do you just love metal?
B: I just love metal. I love them all. Yeah. I'm gonna love you and pet you and call you George. Um, no, it's just, yeah, it's just, they'll have, I mean, they'll have unique different personalities. You know, it's like you're, you know, your, your, your, your cats. Probably both have unique distinct personalities, but they're both cats. You know, so it's that same thing. They're both, it's, it's metal, but they, they have a distinct different personality. So the answer to the question is, probably, my ogham. I love my candle scribe. I like, I like doing candle work. But yeah, I use the ogham more.
K: Would you say that where you live, you live, shape your practice? If you grew up on the West Coast, do you think you would have a different practice?
B: I would think so. Yeah. I don't say how you couldn't. Right? Because your, your environment's different. You're, and your environment shapes you. You know, I was, um, I'm, I'm, I'm a veteran, and I remember spending time in West Germany. Yes, there was a West Germany. I remember spending time there and understanding the culture from my limited young perspective is it was a big difference between the Germans in the South and the Germans in the, in the North.
K: Yeah.
B: Um, and then I, it dawned on me that, hey, it's the same thing in our country. There's a big difference at that time, because we're talking 30 years ago, right? 40 years ago. So the people in the South were a lot different than the people in the North. We've kind of all starting to grow together a little bit more now. So there's not quite the distinction. So I, I definitely think growing up, you know, in a lack of a better word of fishbowl. I mean, because, I mean, we didn't, we never went anywhere unless it was a football or basketball game. You know, everybody, why, why? You know, my I grew up in a little bitty town, you know, my graduating class was 70 people. You know, we were all kin to each other.
K: Good night.
B: You know, kindergarten through 12th grade we rode the same bus. We were on the same campus. So growing up like that to where, you know, mama waiting on the porch when you got home because you got in trouble. "How was your day." "Um, yeah, it's getting worse. I can tell."
K: Miss Johnson called me."
B: Um, so, you know, growing up in that kind of environment versus even growing up in the, in the city, right? I mean, how, how can it not be different? Yeah. And then you go, you know, Midwest has its own culture. I mean, our country is frigging huge.
K: Yeah. You don't realize it until you leave it.
B: You know, or go to a different different part for a while. You can go to a different...
K: Because I was in Europe too. When you, you know, when you can go to five different countries in one day and it takes you two days to drive through Texas itself.
B: Yeah.
K: It's wild.
B: It is. And, you know, I mean, I'm, I am shocked at times. I think about it is, you know, that we are still a country because of our...
K: Yes.
B: Such a vast, we do have a vast diversity. And we have a lot of outside influences we have a lot of inside influences, which is why I'm thinking community's kind of a important thing. But how can it not influence your practice? You know, because I mean, you're going to be used to the plants of your environment, you know, and your plants in the Pacific Northwest is going to be completely different than what I grew up with an Appalachia, right? Other than them being green, you know, they may have some same families, but they're not, they're going to be different, right? And I don't necessarily think that that's a bad thing. I think it's kind of cool, because we're having conversations like you and I are having who we're talking about different things, and we learn different things from each other. You know, I think the more that we can support one another on our practice, our path, whatever, you know, term you want to use, the better off we all are. I think at times when we get so wrapped up in our diversity, that it becomes individually individual, and it goes back to what I said earlier, it creates that silo, right? And I don't think that we can operate as a community in a silo.
K: If you could recommend one book to a new practitioner, what would it be?
B: Oh gosh. Well, I said, I'm Appalachian and I have a fondness for them. I would say pretty much anything by Byron. Ballard. Because it's just, it's easy. You know, her practice is easy. You know, it's about, I think, using what you have versus going to collect stuff to use. If that makes sense.
K: Well, that's how I work. So it makes sense to me.
B: I just think, you know, if I'm a new practitioner, I would, I would, I would get one of Byron's books, Byron Ballard's books. Because it's, well it speaks my language, you know, being, you know, if I was from somewhere else, I may say something else, but if it's a brand new person, just, you know, I don't say, I don't say how you could go wrong with it.
K: You better say the second one they should get is your book.
B: I, you know, I'm so used, I'm not so used, I'm not used to being an author. It wasn't like something I wanted to do, you know, I still, you know, it's like, you're going to write a book. Why? No I'm not. That's always that's my favorite answer to her. I need you to do so and so. No, you don't. You don't need that. You've got all these other other people and minions you could have, do your bidding. Why? Why me? Anyway, no I never say why me. I do not say that. But I do say no a lot. Knowing that, knowing that that's not going to be the answer.
K: You gotta say no first just because, well, I do.
B: That's just my first reaction. I don't, I don't need to do more stuff. No.
K: I'm a toddler at heart. I'm going to say no for everything, even if I really want it. Just because you don't tell me what to do! All right, but what are we doing?
B: Well, see, we have this great relationship. I do what she asks me to do and she lets me sleep.
K: Oh, dang.
B: Because we have this thing that if I don't get to doing what she needs me to do, I have about a three o'clock wake up. That I will then get up and do what she asked me to do. That's how I wrote the book. The book got written and published within eight months. And I was up a lot. You know. I don't know if that's a good time, long time, whatever, but I'm told that's pretty quick.
K: Now it does sound very fast based on my friends who write. Now I'm wondering if do I have insomnia or is somebody trying to get me to do something?
B: Well, see, here's a conversation. Three o'clock rolls around, three thirty rolls around. I wake up. I'm just awake. It's not like I'm rolling over, you know, I'm going back to sleep. It's that I am now awake. And I hear this little voice. "How about now?" Because the story is I don't have time to do it during the day. You wake up three, three, three, three, three, three, how about now? You got time now? You ain't doing nothing but sleeping? Get up. Now you got time. And it's funny to my Beloved now, because I will get up and she says, "Huh, what didn't you do today?" As she rolls over and goes back to sleep. That's how we operate. It is what it is. It's part of my agreement, so it's part of my responsibility. I don't take slight to it. I would like to sleep more, but it just means I need to do more. But the days that I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, I don't have that issue, right?.
K: Well I'm genuinely having this conversation with myself. Is this happening? Because sometimes I just have to go in the studio at three o'clock in the damn morning.
B: And get work done.
K: Yeah. I don't, I guess I gotta do some work on myself.
B: I got a reason. I'm not cruising Facebook and you know, reading CNN or any of that kind of stuff. I'm working with a capital W.
K: Yeah, sometimes I get pulled in there.
B: I just don't, I don't, I know myself better. I don't even bother. I don't, I don't do anything electronic. I just...
K: I need to figure out what is going on in my life then.
B: No, I just get work done.
K: Who or what would you say are the three biggest influences on your practice?
B: Hmm. Well, I think if we talk early on, and I'm going to be one of those people, right? Talking early on, I remember early in my career, you know, Cunningham, right? Because it wasn't anything, you know, Amazon was in its infancy. That's back when it was just, they just did books, right? You actually had to go to a bookstore to get a book, you know, and you're sneaking down the aisle of the metaphysical aisle because you didn't want anybody to see you. You know, good thing is our Barnes and Noble also had the self-help sex stuff on the aisle right behind it. So you could kind of play it off.
K: I'm not looking at magic. I'm looking at boobs!
B: Yeah, yeah. Ho to be a better whatever. So, you know, cooking, aphrodesiacs cooking, you know, that kind of stuff. So they were, they were both pretty, I think, influential because I didn't know. You know, the internet was pretty much in its infancy, right? There wasn't a whole lot of information that was out there. And even today, the information that's out there, a lot of it's just, you know, and I am making a judgment. It's crap. There's a lot of crap out there and there's a lot of bad crap and just dishonest crap. And that's, and I have issues with that. Anyway, but Cunningham was a big influencer, and Silver Ravenwolf was a big influencer. Her first book, you know, I think it's a travesty that that that authors get a book or two and then they mass produce. And I think the work isn't as good. But it's not just, I think our pagan community, I think it's people that get famous, right, or get well known. I think it's, you know, because singers do the same thing. You know, one for the songs put out a slam up breakup, just jamming album, and it's been crap since then. Totally understand it, judgment. You know, so you have the artists that do this and it's just, you know, hey, let me, you know, strike while the iron's hot, blacksmith term, right? Alright? But so anyway, back to back to, you know, that, so those were my probably my earlier influences. And then, you know, recently, as far as the stuff with the Morrigan, you know, you know, Morpheus does some great academic work. So I like that. Stephanie Woodfield, I'm a fan of her later works. You know, I'm a fan of stuff that's lore based and less UPG. Nothing against the UPG, but I think once we get into a lot of UPG, there's... unverified personal gnosis, UPG. Sorry.
K: I was going to ask.
B: I think, you know, once we get into a lot of that, there's, there's too many filters involved, right? Our personal filters that we're filtering through them. So I think going to the source, right, which i sthe lore, anytime that you can go to the source, whether it's you're looking at the Irish lore or you're looking at getting in the Scottish witchcraft, whether you're getting into the Nordic traditions or the Egyptian traditions or whatever, going to the source versus what somebody thinks they say, right? Because a lot of times you end up with a with a filter of their personal prejudices, their personal thoughts and feelings and whatever. Nothing that's necessarily bad, but it changes, right? It's like that when we grew up as little people, right? And we played that telephone game, right? We whisper something somebody's ear and five people later comes back to five people later, let alone 20, right? It comes back to you something completely different. Not because they're doing it on purpose, it's just they, they, they translate it differently, right? So I think going to the source material, whatever that is, I think that is imperative.
K: Who would you be interested in hearing from on the show to answer questions like this? Who do you think would be neat to hear from?
K: Have you talked with, I think a two people, Stephanie Woodfield, I think would be good. She's very interesting. I think she's she's a great conversationalist. And the other person would be Susanna Ravenswing. She is a Northern shaman. Hmm, I don't, it's not my practice, it's not my tradition, but I've personally, it's once again, I personally know her, you know, I've known her a long time. And she used to be a metal worker, you know, jewelry, fine jewelry, did fine jewelry work. She's retired from that, but she's written a couple of books and you know, I highly respect her as a person. So yeah, I think, I think she'd be good.
K: Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about, or is there anything you wanted to ask me?
B: So I think the, the, the, looking at the book, I think the place to start would be why I wrote it, other than being told. As I, I do think that we, we need the reconnection. Because I don't think it's something new, obviously it's been around for a long time, but I think the more connected that we can become in our environment, the more solid will be. You know, um, sometimes I wonder, you know, we, we are lacking because we're just not paying attention to our surroundings. Um, you know, I remember my grandma saying, you know, I got, I got tired blood, right? Because she just didn't have enough iron. You know, it makes, makes things slow, right? Because your, your iron is solely responsible for your body absorbing oxygen. Without iron, your body cannot absorb oxygen. Without copper, your body can't absorb the iron to absorb the oxygen. So it's like these building blocks. Everything works together. So it's not a, uh, uh, this or that. It's a yes and. So I think becoming more aware and reconnecting, you know, we've got, God, God, Gods, how many crystal books do we really need? Um, and that's a judgment and I'm not meaning it that way, but we have all these books that tell us all the different things about crystals. There, there's bupkiss out there. If that's a word, that's a right word. There's diddlysquat out there on metal, right? Um, and it's a travesty because metal is just as important from the earth as crystals are.
K: Yeah, and nobody talks about it.
B: Nobody talks about it. You know, um, because it's, it's a, it's a thing, right? If we started talking about it like it was no longer a thing, you know, it's not a man made substance. It comes from... where I live in the foothills. We have a very iron rich soil, um, back going back to the Revolutionary War and even as a, um, during this War Between the States, Northern Aggression, Civil War, whatever term you want to put on it, we have, still today, what they call iron forges. Around where, I mean, within 15, 20 minutes of where I live, there's a bunch of them, because there's so much iron in our, in our soil, they would really dig it up and cook it in a high heat, and iron would come out of it. And create what they call pig iron, right?
K: Oh, that's what the pig iron is?
B: It's just pure iron. It's, it's just, there's nothing done to it. Iron by itself is brittle, right? Um, steel is iron, about 90% iron, 98% iron and then 2% less of carbon. There may be some other stuff, magnesium and some other things that are taking in it, but steel is 98% iron. And of course, we look at carbon, carbon's what, charcoal, coal, carbon, right? Which we also have, yeah, this, so it's, um, so steel is for the most part, because that's why I kind of use them interchangeably, you know, in my verbi, even though they're not technically the same, um, steel and iron to me, the, I mean 98% that's pretty close to iron. Because iron by itself is brittle. Um, cast iron, cook, you know, cast iron skillet, you can break one, right?
K: What?
B: Oh, yeah, they're, they're, they're, you don't go slam on them around, everybody talks about hitting people over the head with them, don't do that, you'll break your skillet. You still don't, no.
K: Use a bat.
B: You know, yeah, bat, see, rolling pin. Um, you know, but we have a very iron rich here, you know, so as, you know, you look at our water, right? It's got, we have well water, right? I do live in the country. So we have well water. So, you know, you can tell the iron because it's kind of rusty, you know, you can go down to the creek, that's on our property, and you can see the rust running up along the banks, um, from where it's just the iron that's in the soil. You know, but we have, we have a natural connection to this, and we just don't, we don't realize it. And I think if we can add some of that, intentionally add iron into our environment, you know, it'll help with that strength that a lot of people need. It'll help with that courage, you know, it'll help with that direction. Um, I look at iron as being kind of the bones of the earth, right? You know, because if you look back at the, you know, 1920s, 1940s, whatever, the skyscrapers in New York or Boston or wherever you see pictures of these guys walking across these steel beams, right? It's the bones of the building, that you then wrap the whole building around, you know. So it's just strength and rigidity, you know, and this thing that gives it structure, you know, and solidity and, you know, it makes it work. And I've always kind of thought of copper being kind of the blood of the earth, because it has that kind of, well, if you temper it, right? I call it flame kissing, you know, if you, if you temper it, it changes colors and will actually have kind of a, a blood look to it, you know, has that reddish feel to it to me, you know, and it's, it works, it works completely opposite of steel, because as you know, being a metal worker, it's a work hardening, right? It's up and it gets soft and the more you work it, the harder it gets. But I think, you know, I see copper being very healing, right? Which we, you know, who doesn't need a little bit of that? You know, but it has that, that, lack of a better word that kind of grandmama wisdom, right? It's got that ancient wisdom. It's very gentle. It's, you know, it's that, I don't know, it's, it took, to me, it's just, there's a regalness to it, but it's not royal, you know, it's that someone that you just know is wise. They don't need a title, if that makes sense. And of course, we could talk about, I can be here all day, Kim. Literally, I can be here all day. So I mean, I think if we look and spend some time with the metals and let them influence us, you know, how much richer would our practice be? How much richer would our life be?
K: Well, speaking of that, speaking of spending time with it, you do in-person workshops. B: I do. K: Can you tell us a little bit about that?
B: Right. Yes, I'd be happy to. I do a weekend, magical metal, blacksmithing workshop. It's an immersion. I call it an immersion because you coming in on a Friday and then you leave Sunday. You camp here on our property. If you're traveling from great distance, I've got tools and stuff here, you don't have to bring with you, but if you're local, bring your own tools. You know, we can we can source you gear, you know, if you want to want to camp out on the land. There's hotels and stuff that's close by, but most people like to camp with kind of a complete immersion. And we spend time with the metal. And I take you through the process of connecting with it. We have a labyrinth on our property to where you can go walk the labyrinth with it. We've got walking trails. We've got about close to 10 acres here. Yeah, people can kind of just spend time with the metal, connecting. Being taught by it, you know, and then you make tools while you're here. We work both with copper and steel. And, you know, you can make yourself some magical tools for your practice while you're here and connect with that. And it's life-changing. I don't know how else to say it. It'll change your life. You'll never be the same again. And my Beloved cooks. So we eat, you know, biscuits and gravy and...
K: Oh, dang. You know what I can't get an Arizona? Friggin biscuits.
B: Yeah, we've been watching this, the British Bake Off, whatever we've been watching some of that. And every time they say biscuit, I'm thinking, you know, biscuits and gravy, you know, biscuits and country ham. I think you're talking about biscuits... they're talking about cookies. No. No. You can't use it.
K: At least in Arizona, they know what a biscuit is when I say it, but they just don't do it right.
B: It's, what, from Hardee's, you know, you got Bojangles out there?
K: No. It's Carl's Jr out here.
B: I went to Utah once. They don't have, they got scones. It took me forever to figure out it's scones. A scone.
K: Who? Who has it?
B: When I was out in Utah. I was out in Utah for a little while.
K: Who has scones?
B: They don't, it's like their fast food. It's what everybody ate their breakfast sandwiches, in a scone.
K:The hell?
B: That's what I said. So what's your couple biscuits up in there? What are you doing? You can't put gravy on this!
K: Suddenly we're English? What in the world! Well, they don't do that in Arizona.
B: Y'all going to hell. I ain't going nothing to tell you. Said my 19-year-old.
K: Oh my god. That is, that is the Southern response.
B: Yes. The workshops are, they're phenomenal. We will get used to everything on Friday, eat, do a land walk to get you used to your environment, get you know, introduce you to the land, to the labyrinth. Saturday, we'll spend all day Saturday forging, creating, getting in touch, being in touch. The space is limited to six people. I only have six at a time.
K: I didn't know that. Yeah, it's limited to six people. So I can teach. That's why people are here, and that's what I want to do, I wanna teach. And it makes it a much more intimate event. It's why I call it an immersion, because I mean you're getting chunked and dumked. You know, I mean this is, you know, some smothered covered stuff. So it gives you space to experiment. It gives you space to experience. It gives you space to grow, without all that added, you know hoopla, so to speak. I've tried to do it with bigger classes and six is just, it's a great number because-
K: It's my lucky number.
B: So you know six plus me is seven. So there we go. You know, and you just spend time, you know, people, you know, have come and have never split wood before because they're wood-fired forges. I mean, we're, you know, we're doing it primitive style. So you can really kind of get in touch with everything that's going on. It's a great experience. I've had people that have come back to repeat it multiple times, because it is just life changing. You will never look at metal be the same ever again. It's awesome. I'm also understanding that that's a judgment, but I'm, I've got, you know, you can, I've got plenty of testimonies. I've been doing this three, four years now. It was kind of what prompted me to to write the book because I kept, people kept telling me you need a right book, need a right book. Shit, I don't write. What are you talking about? I don't, I don't speak English. You want me to write it? So yeah, it's, and, and, you know, if anybody wants to, it's RavenskeepForge.com. You can go on the website. It's there. It's an experience. I've got pictures that are, you know, all over social media. But it'll change your life, in a good way. And it's non-traditional. So you don't have to follow, you don't even necessarily have to be a quote unquote magic worker. I've had people that were just kind of, you know, open, that came. You know, so you don't have to be a practice and pagan or anything like that. I don't, you know, I'm not searching, you know, you don't have to provide pedigrees to show up. Just, if you're called and need to be here, then just, you know, register and come on.
K: And finally, I have a request for you.
B: Uh-oh.
K: Please recommend something to the listeners.
B: You're just going to leave it there. I... recommend what?
K: Whatever, whatever you feel like saying. "Hey, you know what I'm into right now?" Or "This show I saw," or "Here's what I like to eat on my sandwich." Whatever.
B: Tomatoes. I can live on tomato sandwiches. If you don't grow your own tomatoes for tomato sandwiches, what, what, what are you doing?
K: You're being sad because you live in the desert. That's what we're doing.
B: You can grow them. You can figure out a way. You're Southern, you can figure it out.
K: Yeah, but my irrigation broke this year.
B: Hell, people grow 'em upside down in the front porch, you know, it's a line. If you want to.
K: I'm going to, but I'm struggling. Plus, you can't, at least here, the, you can't, it's really difficult to grow the big ones because they split and get sun burnt. We got to grow little ones, but I do grow little ones and just eat them out in the garden.
B: Yep, like candy. Yeah. Oh, all right. Recommend, recommend, recommend. Gosh, that's hard. What do I recommend? Sitting here looking around my office, trying to, waiting to see what jumps out at me.. You know, the biggest thing is, I recommend people get in touch. I recommend people do the work. Get active. I recommend people get involved. You know, and getting involved doesn't mean you need to go to a protest. Getting involved means you reach out. You know, try to make a difference. You know, do the work, that capital W, do, do the, just do the damn work. You know? There's so many people that get so involved with doing all the research, and you get so involved with knowing all the things. And the thing that social media is horrible at is calling people out, you know, so you're afraid to do anything wrong, so you don't do anything. Screw that. Just do the work. Figure it out. We need more people doing work.
K: Well, thank you for being on the show.
B: On that note.
K: Well, that's basically it. I mean, that's a good message. I like it.
B: So since we're still on the show, Kim, when you coming out take the class?
K: Dang it! When I make enough money!
B: Understood.
K: But I do. I do really want to. I REALLY want to. Because I want to learn to make my own forge, frankly.
B: Yeah. And what, we, we talk about that too. It's not as difficult. You ain't got to, you know what? We, as a species, we've been forging since what? The copper age.
K: I don't know.
B: And it ain't changed none. We get it hot and we hit it hard.
K: I'm excited to. But I'm, yeah, I do plan to. If it's, it can't be this year because you don't do it past April, right?
B: I do it in, in the spring and in the fall.
K:In the fall, I have a commitment. But, and actually you should come up to it. Oh, you, no, you're doing this thing. So you can't probably.
B: Yeah. In the fall. Yeah, it depends. Yeah. We'll talk.
K: Yeah. Well, thank you for being on the show. And for the stories, and for the familiar voice.
B: Well, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for the invite. You know, it's always funny how, how connections were made.
K:Yeah.
B: Yeah. You don't ever know. Just goes to show you. You never know what kind of influence you're going to have just by doing something.
K: And that makes me so happy. I love it so much.
B: You know, so just do something.
K: Well, thank you again. And I will hopefully see you out there soon.
B: Yes. Yes.
K: Bye!
B: Bye!
K: So welcome to Patreon. We're making a jump.
B: I see that. *fade out*
B: *fade in* And I do that, and then I put the Ogham going in a spiral so it's in different spots going up the one... Absolutely exquisite piece. To this day I'm still very fond of it. But that was a major shift in my practice, because I became aware of the metal was a lot. Because it started doing things that I had never done before. That, it reacted in ways that it, metal had never reacted before. And it was like that epiphany, you know, that blinding flash of the obvious. That's, to me that's where it all started. My metal magic practice was doing that, that wand, and I still keep in contact with it. Via the person. It's actually in France. *fade out*
K: To hear more of the Patreon episode, head over to patreon.com/cleverkimscurios for a free seven day trial. The $5 tier will give you podcast bonuses, videos, recipes, access to the Marco Polo and Facebook groups and more. There are also tiers starting at $10 where you can get spell boxes, intentional handcrafted jewelry that I make especially for witches, and there's even a special crystal tier. Check it out at patreon.com/cleverkimscurios.
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