For the final week of Pride month I talked to Vincent Higgenbotham. Vini talked about his relationship with Hecate, why he doesn't do money magic, and a magical intention trick he works with pumpkins every year.
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Vincent Higgenbotham
Author of How Witchcraft Saved My Life and Thrifty Witchery, Magic for the Penny-Pinching Practitioner
Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where every Tuesday we talk about witch life, witch stories, and sometimes a little witchcraft. Your Average Witch is brought to you by Clever Kim's Curios. This week I talked to Vincent Higgenbotham. Vini talked about his relationship with Hecate, why he no longer does money magic, and tells us about a magical intention trick he works with pumpkins every year. Now let's get to the stories!
Kim: Hello, Vincent, welcome to the show.
Vincent: Hi, thanks for having me.
Kim: Thanks for being here. Can you please introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and what you do and where they can find you?
Vincent: Yeah, so my name is Vincent Higgenbotham. People call me Vini. I am an author. I've written two books, How Witchcraft Saved My Life, Practical Advice for Transformative Magic, and then I co-authored Thrifty Witchery, Magic for the Penny Pinching Practitioner. I can be found on TikTok and Instagram. Pretty much you can search Vincent Higgenbotham and find me. And I'm a little bit on that bird app, but really it's just a stalker situation more than anything. I like to see what's happening. I don't really post on there much.
Kim: After the whole lunacy, I just don't use that app anymore.
Vincent: Right, I mean, like, it's nice to see what's happening in the world, but I don't know. There's a lot of craziness on there.
Kim: So what does it mean to you when you call yourself a witch?
Vincent: So for me, being a witch is about basically finding my own sovereignty and self-empowerment, and then using that to kind of take the energy that I know exists within me, and use that with informed wisdom and intuition, and intuition to then manipulate the world around me to obtain the desires that I'm seeking.
Kim: So I have read your book but I know that not all my readers have. So can you tell us if you have any family history with witchcraft or how you got started there?
Vincent: So I don't have a family history with witchcraft. My sister is also a practicing witch and you know, like I really look to her for a lot of things, but we both kind of I think came into magic and the practice of witchcraft on our own. There wasn't really a deciding thing for either of us and I dabbled pretty much my whole life, but it wasn't until I had a conversation with my sister like I guess maybe a decade ago where she was like "No, you're a witch. Like obviously that's what you're talking about." and I was like "No I just... I mean like I dabble with things." and she's like "No you're describing being a witch." and I'm like "Am I?" and then I really like look back over my life, I'm like oh I'm a witch, cool. Like how did I miss this. And then I really dove in and started like kind of accessing more than I realized I could, and went from there.
Kim: I think it's interesting when people have other people tell them "You know, you might want to look into... to see how you feel about the word witch."
Vincent: Yeah, so like, I mean like, you know, I grew up homeless. I spent like a decade homeless. I was chronically homeless. And during that time, I definitely could not access what a normal person has access to, right? So, I spent a lot of time sitting in the aisles at Barnes & Noble, and Books A Million, and reading the witchcraft books and trying to figure out how to use magic. But I guess it never really like triggered, oh, this makes me a witch, you know, because in my head there was this whole thing that you had to live up to to be a witch. And it just took a long time to realize that I didn't actually have to live up to anything. And so really like what I'm doing with my practice as an author is to teach that to people. You know, like I want other people to be told what I wish somebody told me, is that like you're a witch if you're a witch if you're a witch.
It doesn't, you don't have to be like born into something. You don't have to be initiated. It doesn't have to work that way, because these ideas that we have in modern witchcraft have not always been the case. And what we look at the past and see in what we identify as witches now, like these people weren't initiated. They weren't like, oh, I do this and I cast a circle and all these things, right? They were like living off the land, and maybe they learned something from their mother or their grandmother, or they just kind of intuitively started realizing that these herbs work. And then we started calling them witches. They might not even have called themselves witches. And that is what using magic is about. And really, I like to use the term witch because I identify with that. But there are people in the world who use magic that don't call themselves witches, right? Like praying is like a form of magic. You're putting a thing out there and you're like, hey, this is what I'm trying to get. And then you're putting your energy into it and you're getting what you ask for, that's magic. Whether you're calling it magic or witchcraft or whatever, it's all kind of in that same spectrum of manipulating the world around you to get what you desire.
Kim: I recently joined a group called Appalachian Americans on Facebook and there are so many people in there talking about witchcraft, but if you say the word witch everyone flips out.
Vincent: Yeah.
Kim: They're talking about... like recently the biggest thing everybody's talking about is moon water. And there are people in there who are not witches, or wouldn't call themselves witches. Would be horrified, but they're still talking about moon water, which fascinates me.
Vincent: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, that's the thing, though, is like, I think that as we go further into the future, there's going to be that moment where we realize, like, hey, magic is accessible by everyone, no matter what you're calling yourself. And it's okay to use magic in these ways. Crystals have an energy. If you choose to use them, that's great. Like, you don't need them, but if you're choosing to use them, whether you're a witch or not, they have different like vibrations that help with different things and herbs and things like that. You know, like, speaking of Appalachians, I live right, like kind of at the foothills of the Appalachian trail in South Carolina. And there's like, my husband grew up in Georgia and he's constantly talking about some backwoods Georgia shit. And I'm like, you're talking about magic. And he's like, no, I'm a Christian. I'm like, okay, baby. That's cool. Yeah, you are. And that's fine. But like what you're talking about, yeah, I can literally find these things in the plethora of witchcraft books that I have in my house. I can show it to you. And he's like, I don't want to look at that. I'm like, okay, my granddaddy taught me this. I'm like, cool, but they were using conjure and they were using magic and maybe that's not what they called it. And that's fine. I'm cool with that. I'll meet you where you're at. No, no problems. But magic is accessible by everybody. And like Christians included, you know, like we're all using it.
Kim: It's just semantics.
Vincent: Yep, absolutely.
Kim: Well, speaking of all these different forms of magic that we can use, do you have any consistent practice that you'll tell us about, rituals or anything like that?
Vincent: Yeah, so I am devoted to a specific deity, and I only work with her. I won't work with any other deities. I'm super, super into Hecate, and there's like a whole story about how that came about, but my entire practice is about her. So I have a statue on my altar, and it's a tiny little altar, but every day I give an offering of blood to my deity, and I also use that blood, and I just get like a little drop of blood from like one of those diabetic things. But it's super convenient. And, um, like I just pick my finger and I give that to my, like, I basically feed it to my statue as an offering. And then I also have this system for my writing where I keep a candle always. And I feed that a drop of three drops of blood every morning. And with, like, the same intention always. Won't discuss the intention, because we keep something silent. But it's just kind of like my daily, I wouldn't say ritual so much as it is just a practice. And then I do things in the shower and when I'm getting ready that I kind of make magical. Like when I put on lip balm, I am calling in clear communication. And when I brush my teeth, I am ridding myself of negative self-talk and when I wash my hair I am washing out like negative thoughts and anxiety and stuff. And you know things like that. Like I kind of integrate magic into all of my daily... for a lack of better word, mundane activities, and I just kind of make everything a little bit magical.
Kim: It didn't occur to me to give offerings to my craft. But I'm a jeweler, so I'm constantly burning the shit out of myself. (both laugh)
Vincent: That's an offering. I think that counts.
Kim: This, this question, considering the name of your book is funny, but how would you say witchcraft changed your life?
Vincent: So when I realized that I had the power within me to achieve the things that I wanted to achieve, it was eye-opening, right? Like there's been several times where I cast a spell and I got what I wanted, even when I was dabbling. But I never realized that the empowerment was always there until I really dove into understanding witchcraft and where it truly comes from, in my opinion. And in doing that, I found a strength in me that I didn't know existed. It was always there, and I always knew I had strength and whatever, right? But this idea that it is there whether I know it or not was just a very empowering thing that literally changed my life. When I came into this, I started seeing all these changes.
Like, I don't do money magic, like I have a very firm boundary against money magic. But because of the other things that I was doing with my magic, like protection and, you know, road openers and whatnot, I started seeing my bank account grow. I started seeing better jobs come my way, promotions. And then what really helped was as I started learning about witchcraft and magic, and I started writing about it, and I really dove in, I started understanding that it really takes the work, right? You have to put in the work to do it. Like, okay, I want this book deal. Well, that means I have to write a fucking book.
And like that wasn't, it wasn't ever lost on me, but I've always wanted to write books, right? Ever since I was like eight years old, I'm like, I'm an author, I'm an author, I'm an author. And then I would just be lost in this imposter syndrome about being an author. And then I had this opportunity with Llewellyn to pitch, to pitch a book. And I did, and I did a whole road opener thing. And then I realized, well, now I have to write the fucking book. Shit. What am I? What if it sucks? What if I'm horrible at this? And what if I'm not good? And then I just did it anyway. And I, and that was that moment where like, I knew I had to do the work, but I can't just like do magic to win the lottery and then play the lottery. Like I have to like do magic to open the road to writing books, and then win the lottery by writing, and becoming like, you know, eventually a bestseller in some world or way. Not there yet, but I will be.
Kim: Plus, if you're doing protection magic to keep safe, what better way to keep safe than to be safely employed with insurance and enough money to buy food and cover your head?
Vincent: Facts. Completely. Yeah.
Kim: What would you say is the biggest motivator in your practice and has it changed since you first started out?
Vincent: It has not changed and the biggest motivator in my practice would definitely be self-preservation. So like what do I need to do to help me and to help those around me, which basically just re-fortifies helping me, right? Like if I'm helping my husband, I'm helping me. If I'm helping my sons, I'm helping me.
Kim: Community.
Vincent: Like any protection, yeah, exactly. Like any protection I put on my son gives me mental stability when I send him off to school in dangerous.
Kim: Children are terrifying.
Vincent: I mean, look!
Kim: Having kids... I would have a nervous breakdown.
Vincent: My son came home two weeks ago and he was like, "Oh this kid on my bus had a pocket knife" and all I could do was spiral out of... I was like...
Kim: My stomach hurt when you said "The kid on the bus had..." and my stomach dropped.
Vincent: Right, because it's scary. It's a scary world we live in, and kids are fucking bonkers. They're being raised by TikTok. And it's just, it's terrifying. And then there's like kids in the world who aren't raised correctly. I'm not going to judge anybody, but you know, like my kid would never, he would know better than to take a knife to school. So like the parent who hasn't taught their kid that yet is also terrifying. And so when I take these things into account, I'm like, okay, cool. So like, let's just make sure my son has protection on him because that's going to give me the mental safe space to put him on the bus every day. You know? Like, it's just this whole thing. And so while I am using magic to protect him, it also protects me. And so really, it's just like self preservation, like mental self preservation, physical self preservation, things like that.
Kim: Would you say that you ever have imposter syndrome about your practice?
Vincent: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Kim: Nooo! (both laugh)
Vincent: Yes. Of course. I think that I don't know where I read it or who said it, but I feel like I read or heard or saw somebody say something to the effect of people who have imposter syndrome have imposter syndrome because they're actually good at what they're doing. So I feel like if you don't have those moments where you're not sure of yourself, you're not challenging.
Kim: You don't know enough.
Vincent: What?
Kim: You don't know enough then.
Vincent: Right.
Kim: To know what you don't know.
Vincent: Right, exactly. And so like if you're not having those moments where you're like not sure of yourself, then maybe you should like try to challenge yourself a little bit further, you know, because I think, you know, there's always days, like I have this very specific spell, magical thing that I'm kind of working on right now in my life that I really can't discuss because it's in process. But like every day I'm like, is it working? And I'm like, no, yeah, of course it is. Yeah, like, that's fine. But like it's every day I have to like remind myself that I am valid, and I am empowered, and I am worthy, and I can do this. And it's just like I don't think that I think that if you don't have self-doubt, then you're awfully pompous to believe that you can just do anything. And I think that that is a toxic human trait in a lot of ways
Kim: How do you tell yourself that? How do you remind yourself that you are the shit?
Vincent: You know, I don't... (laughs) I don't actually say I'm the shit.
Kim: I do. (laughs)
Vincent: I remind my... That's good. (laughs) I think I think that more people probably should say that to themselves because they need that you know that gassing up. For me, how I gas myself up as I just remind myself that I have to have faith in myself and I am putting in the work, and that as long as I am coming to every situation from a place of being impeccable, that I'm doing everything I need to do.
Kim: That's lovely.
Vincent: Thanks. Thanks.
Kim: Yeah I have a list of crap that I've achieved in my life that, as a child, I would have been really impressed.
Vincent: That's amazing.
Kim: So I just look at my list of crap that I've done and think, oh, I guess I'm not such an idiot after all, maybe.
Vincent: I think that's completely valid. I think that that's like definitely a way, that's something I do, like when I'm, especially when I'm writing a book, I'm like, oh my god, this is a piece of shit. My editor is going to be like, nope, you've lost your book deal, whatever. And then I remind myself, Vini, you felt this way on the last two books that you wrote. So probably this isn't real, and probably you just need to keep going. And you know, it gets me there. But there are days, certainly, where I don't know how to get up and sit down at my computer and write, or there are days where I don't know how to sit in front of my altar and do the thing that I do every day. And I take those moments, and especially if it comes to my magic, I start reminding myself of all of the things that have worked out. And I do it in talking to my deity. I'm like, you know, I know that you're there because these are the things that I've asked for, and these are the things that I got out of it. And so this is how I can maintain that faith. And so it's not very different from what you're saying that you do.
Kim: So all this stuff is hard. But would you say this is your biggest struggle? And if it's not, what is, in your witchcraft?
Vincent: I think that yeah, this would definitely be the... the biggest struggle in my witchcraft is time. Finding the time, and figuring out how to to practice while living the life that I intend to live. And so recently, I actually kind of came into the understanding that I could incorporate the two. And so in incorporating it, now instead of finding the time, I'm finding that I need to remind myself to do the thing. Does that make sense?
Kim: Yeah, that sounds good.
Vincent: Yeah. (laughs) Cool. Okay.
Kim: Oh, goodness. Okay. What would you say brings you the most joy in your practice?
Vincent: In my practice, just seeing the fruition of my efforts. Like seeing what I put effort into happen, right? Like getting a book deal when I put magic into making that happen, or reaching the end of the book that I'm writing when I put magic into that. Things like that. I would definitely say that there is a lot of joy right now in the pumpkin plant that I'm growing in my yard, because I've put a lot of magic into that. And so that would definitely be like, I mean, that is going to literally come into fruition come around October. And that's a big deal to me! I just like, you know, like when you say "Okay hey, this seed is for this very specific intention and as it grows, that intention is coming," and then you watch it be the biggest plant in your fucking yard, like, shit, that is joyful!
Kim: Squash plants are really satisfying for that reason. They're huge.
Vincent: Yeah. Yeah. I accidentally grew pumpkins two years ago, and I didn't mean to. I didn't know that I was growing a pumpkin plant. And then one day this, like, vine was growing out from underneath my house. And my husband and I were like, what is that? And we weren't sure and I was like, let's just see what happens. And so we did and it got flowers and then all of a sudden there were pumpkins. I was like, how did this happen? And ever since then I'm like, I grow pumpkins. That's what I do. (both laugh) So last year I planted pumpkins and my husband kept cutting them with the mower and they never grew. And I was devastated. And then this year I was like, "This is my pumpkin patch, do not cut here." And I started them in a little pot, and then I transferred them into the ground in front of this magnolia tree that we're growing. And in addition to that, from the same pumpkin, I found two other places that I would just like plant the rest of the seeds. And there's this one that's like already flowering and everything, and it's pretty cool. So like I got a thing for pumpkins I guess, I have no idea. I'm not, I don't have a green thumb but I've decided I'm going to like do my damnedest and get there, because why not? I'm in my 40s, like why not learn how to grow things at this point.
Kim: Do you know what kind they are?
Vincent: ...No? Pumpkins, the orange kind. They're like medium size. So what I did, what I do is I take one of my pumpkins and I keep it on my altar from the time I harvest it until spring. And I just basically feed it the energy of the intentions that I plan to plant with it. And then when it comes time for planting in like, you know, late April, I go ahead and like take two seeds, or three seeds this time. And I put my intention into it, and I plant those. And then every day I go out and I touch the leaves, and I just speak my intention on it.
Kim: I love that!
Vincent: And when it gets a pumpkin, so once it gets a pumpkin on each one, at least one, I will, while they're still green, you can scratch into them. I learned this from my friend Hannah. She does a podcast out of Australia. She was like, you know, you can like scratch your intention into them while they're still green, and then they'll grow and it'll say it. And so I was like, shut up. And I did it, and it worked. And then those seeds didn't grow last year. Those are the ones that didn't grow. So this year I had a different pumpkin that sat on my altar. And so when I get the pumpkins and they're green, I'll go out and scratch my intention on them, and then I'll replant one seed from each one so that that intention can go on to next year.
Kim: (pauses) I'm doing that. I have luffa growing in the garden. Holy shit! That's cool!
Vincent: Yeah.
Kim: Why does it never occur to me? Holy shit!
Vincent: That's so awesome because you can totally use that for cleansing and clearing, right? Because like...
Kim: Yes, that's what I got it for. That's why I planted it.
Vincent: Yes, so put that intention in there for cleansing and clearing like, you know, bad energies and oh my god, I could go on and on. I'm going to grow loofah now too.
Kim: Get ready patrons, because the loofah was planted for y'all.
Vincent: Awesome.
Kim: What would you say is your biggest fear in witchcraft?
Vincent: My biggest fear in witchcraft is fucking around and finding out.
Kim: I love that part.
Vincent: (laughs) Yeah, like I don't want to do that. I don't want to like, I don't want to like mess with something I don't understand, right? So like if I'm going to do something, I want to get really educated about it as much as I can, right? Like look at different sources, old sources, new sources, personal sources, I want to talk to people. and I don't want to ever appropriate anything. That would be another fear that I have.
Kim: Yeah.
Vincent: So, like, I really, I really like, I don't, I don't call myself eclectic, but I definitely don't have a brand of magic, right? I'm not like, I'm not Wiccan, I don't ever cast a circle, nothing like that, right? And I don't have like magical tools like the knife and a wand or anything like that. I really like herbs that come from my heritage like bay leaf, and basil, and things like that because I grew up very, very Italian. My mother is really into being Sicilian. And so the herbs that she would use in her cooking are a lot of the herbs that I use. And that's even if I'm using herbs, but like, things like that, like, I don't really dive into that.
But if I find something that's interesting, and I look into it, like eggshells, for instance. Eggshells, to me are this really great thing for protection, because it's a shell, like, it's literally protecting the thing that's growing. And so I was like, really into it. And then I learned about cascarilla. And I hope I'm not saying that wrong, but it's like, and I want to say South American, Spanish, kind of, you know, Spanish American, I don't know. I don't want to like overstep my line of understanding, but I have a friend who is Latin American and he knows about cascarilla because it's something that they use. And so I reached out to him when I was like, okay, I think I want to use eggshells on this thing and I'm like, "Hey can you tell me about cascarilla? Like tell me about what this is, and I just want to know everything I can so I know that I'm not appropriating it." And he like discussed appropriation with me. His name is Elohim. He has a, he has several books out, and he has a new one coming out this year. He's awesome. I love him to death and I was just talking with him. He was like, "Well, tell me why you use it." And I was like, well, a shell to me is about protection and I want to use it for protection. He goes, this is not appropriation. This makes sense. You're using it for what it, you know, it makes sense. It's an intuitive thing. And then he like kind of discussed it from a Latin American perspective about why they would use an eggshell. And I was like, oh, this is not the same. Like, this is not how I would use it.
And so, you know, before I dove into using this as a practice, I wanted to make sure that I was talking to somebody who would know about from their culture about whether or not I'm using it inappropriately or taking from something that I don't understand. And if I am about to do something that is from a culture that I'm not part of, I want to discuss it with people from that culture so that I do understand from their perspective, why they do it, what it's for. If it's like wrong for me to incorporate it into it, like burning sage, right? Like I would never, ever, ever walk around my house burning sage, because I understand that that's like super not a thing that a white dude should be doing. Because there's like ritual, there's a ritual background to it for indigenous people and using white sage, and they don't just use it for like cleaning their house like you see people talk about all the time. You know what I'm talking about? And so I try to like make sure that I understand these things before ever fucking around and finding out that I shouldn't have, because I don't want to be that guy.
Kim: Shout out to your book, because I got to that part last night about appropriation and the eggshells and the dreamcatcher conversation.
Vincent: Yes.
Kim: I like that.
Vincent: Yeah. I think that those are really important conversations to be had because, I mean, like, I'm not an incredibly political person, but witchcraft is political in that way. And it's really important to remember that if it's not your cultural practice, you had better understand it before using it. Otherwise, you're just literally stealing from people the way that we stole people's land. And I mean, not to come off as some like bleeding heart anything, I just think that there are appropriate ways that things should be handled. And in the past, they were not handled that way. And so it's up to us to do it the right way now that we've learned from those mistakes, right?
Kim: Hopefully.
Vincent: Like, I think that's imperative. Yeah, I mean, probably not because...
Kim: Look at the country.
Vincent: Well, yeah.
Kim: A lot of it. Or the vocal part anyway.
Vincent: Yeah, I mean, I think there's vocalization on both sides, but I think that the voices that should be heard are not heard enough.
Kim: I agree.
Vincent: So maybe it's okay to be the white guy who says, hey, that's not okay. Because maybe that will be heard.
Kim: We should be.
Vincent: Yeah.
Kim: That should be what we do.
Vincent: Yeah, I agree.
Kim: What is something you did early on in your practice that you don't do anymore?
Vincent: Money magic. (laughs) I used to, the whole time I was dabbling, I was like, I need to win the lottery, I need to win the lottery. So I come from this very, like my family is like middle, upper middle class, right? They're like military and everything. So I grew up like that, and then I became homeless around 15. And from like 15 to 25, I was incredibly homeless, just chronically homeless without mental health issues, without like drug issues, without anything. I just couldn't get it together. And then I figured it out, and then I went to college. And after college, I started like really trying to win the lottery because I needed to pay off, you know, student loans and like not live in the slums of South Philadelphia. And I just really thought that that was the way in. And so I would do like all this money magic that would never see results. And I really didn't understand what I was doing. And I really have come to a place where that is not the magic that I want to practice. And I'm not really concerned with money so much, now, as I am well-being, right? Like I don't need to be some rich guy. I don't need to be Stephen King in terms of selling books. I just need to be Vini. And if I can find my place and my happy ground, then that's all I really need. And so the magic I work on now is just to keep that where it's at.
Kim: I'm in a business class, and it's pretty hardcore. And I was scared to go into it. But the the first question, the first big question that we were asked is what do you want out of your life? And I interpreted it literally. And my answer was, I want to be happy and content. I don't want to be a billionaire necessarily. I mean, I'd take it if it was handed to me but I'm not gonna reach for it. I just want to be happy and left alone basically. And I don't necessarily need to win the lottery for that.
Vincent: Yeah, yeah, I can vibe with that. I think that like for me, my biggest like thing that I want out of my life is to, I want my name spoken for a long time after I pass.
Kim: (gasps) Yes.
Vincent: I want, I want my name to be on the lips of people that aren't even alive yet.
Kim: Me too. Yeah.
Vincent: Yeah. Like, doesn't that seem like goals?
Kim: Hell yes!
Vincent: Yeah.
Kim: I think about that sometimes.
Vincent: Yeah. And like, I just, I definitely, I want, I want it to be like Charles Dickens or Jules Verne. I just want to be like that, you know, I want, I want people to be like, Oh yeah, Jules Verne or, Oh yeah, Vincent Higginbotham. Like, I don't care how.
Kim: I've heard your reference.
Vincent: Yeah.
Kim: They just cite you in the back.
Vincent: Maybe, yeah. I mean like I certainly don't want like infamy, I don't want to be like Charles Manson, and I don't want that to be a reason somebody says my name, but like I certainly... I don't know, Jules Verne seems like a good goal or better yet Vincent Van Gogh. Motherfucker died poor, but we still say his name! That, that is the goal of life for me. Like I don't, I don't care, as long as I can get by. I don't want to like cut off my ear or anything, but as long as I'm being my
Kim: Drastically, incredibly depressed.
Vincent: Well too late. (laughs)
Kim: (bursts into laughter) Oh shit. (both laugh)
Vincent: Yeah. (laughs) But you know, just like, you know, I want my name said long after I'm gone. I think that that is the life goal.
Kim: What is your favorite tool in your practice? I'm not necessarily talking about physical objects, anything you use.
Vincent: Yeah, I would say my intuition.
Kim: Good one.
Vincent: Yeah. I mean, I feel like there should be more to say after that, but I feel like that's definitely a one word answer.
Kim: (laughs) What else can you say? Because the follow up is kind of how do you use it, but you know, you know how you do that.
Vincent: It's just you just do. You just listen to your gut and let it tell you where you're going. And I feel I feel like intuition definitely comes from the heart, gut, solar plexus area. At least that's where I feel it. I read somewhere that people say that they feel their anxiety where they've been traumatized or hurt. And so I feel a lot of my anxiety right in my chest, because my heart has been hurt, that figurative kind of thing in the past. And so I feel like my intuition also is there. And it's very visceral. And I know that it's happening inside my head through internal dialogue, but I know when I know because I feel it in my gut, and I think that that's how you listen to it. Like you know where your intuition is talking to you from, and listen to it from there, and you know what you know when you know it.
Kim: But you gotta practice it.
Vincent: Yeah, absolutely because you got to test it out. There's plenty of that. Even now, like even though I know where it comes from, there are moments where I'm like, is that my intuition or is it just because I really want it, you know? And so you gotta you gotta keep Keep testing it keep challenging it. It just comes back to challenging if you're so sure that that's what's happening. Maybe it's not really what you think it is. You know, like maybe you need to put it to work, put it to the challenge more often to be certain.
Kim: For me, it's not really a positive thing that often. It's usually "Is this intuition or is this anxiety?"
Vincent: (laughs) Yeah, well, there's that.
Kim: That's super fun. That's a fun game I love to play.
Vincent: So like when I feel my anxiety though, it's like really high up in my chest and it feels like my bones need to be, like, stretched. And when I feel my intuition, it's lower, kind of solar plexus or, like, in between where my ribs end and my belly button begins, and it's almost like it tightens and then flutters. And so that's how I discern the difference between the two. And that could be very different for anybody, right? But for me, it's like excitement happens there, and then anxiety happens way up here.
Kim: Where it shuts your throat off?
Vincent: Yeah, like almost like I need to stretch my sternum to crack it. Like that's how it feels. I feel like I'm going to give myself anxiety, like talking about it, but whatever. Anxiety is like commonplace lately, so I'm just kind of leaning into it and being like, no, that's anxiety. You're not having a heart attack, chill. (laughs) Like, it's so funny too, because I'm always like, does my left arm hurt? Do I have gas? And then I'm like, should I take some Tylenol? And then I'm like, no.
Kim: I do the stroke thing.
Vincent: (laughs) Yeah, listen.
Kim: "I might be having a stroke."
Vincent: Sometimes I'm not sure if maybe I'm about to like have a stroke, and I don't want to sound like a hypochondriac, but like sometimes I'm not sure so I go and look at myself and I smile to make sure that my mouth is working, and I'm like, okay, we're good.
Kim: Stick your tongue out, sniff, see if you're smelling anything?
Vincent: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just self check. You should check in with yourself. That's life. Life in 2023.
Kim: If you could only recommend one source of information to a new practitioner, what would it be and why?
Vincent: Oh my god. One source. (pauses) Like can that be an umbrella source, or like can I say books? (both laugh)
Kim: I mean... you can? You can say whatever you want, I'm not the boss of you, but I would love a specific one. (laughs)
Vincent: Oh man. That's so difficult because...
Kim: You can say one author maybe?
Vincent: That's hard too because like I have so working in the author realm I've like managed to meet a lot of really well-informed people, and even they have their moments where I'm like "No I don't agree with that," and that's okay. Like I think that one source... Yourself! Let's go with that I think that. If you only have one source, it should be you, and it should be your discernment. Because...
Kim: Oh, that yeah.
Vincent: Yeah! Yay! Winning! I won! I win this game every time. No, so I think that...
Kim: (laughing) I do that too!
Vincent: What's that?
Kim: That's what I do too. Like, yes, I won this one. (both laugh)
Vincent: Like, celebrate the wins. But, yeah, I would say your own discernment is the best source. Because I love several authors, like Jason Manke or Thorn Mooney, but they're very Wiccan and there are things that they have discussed that I'm like, I don't even know that I can approach it that way, because I don't even know anything about Wicca, right? And so, like, I would have to use my own discernment. And so, like, I'm a really big fan of Thorn Mooney in particular. And she wrote this really great book. And I'm going to butcher the name of it if I try. So we'll just say her last book that she wrote was super informative. And it didn't dive deeply into practice as a Wiccan witch, but it dived deeper into being a witch in the modern landscape. And so much of that resonated with me. And then there were like moments where I was like, oh, that doesn't resonate with me. And I think that's okay, because you probably shouldn't agree with everything that one person says, because then you're just becoming like an android or an automaton, like you don't want to be programmed, right? So your own discernment is an excellent source that tells you, Hey, yes, I do vibe with this, or Hey, no, I don't vibe with that. That would be my answer.
Kim: Okay. This is my funnest... (laughs) I don't care about grammar. This is my funnest answer that I've heard so far, because instead of just saying, oh, blah, blah's YouTube channel, or this book, you're having a discussion, I guess I'm included. We're having a discussion as to how you find that for yourself. That's cool!
Vincent: Yeah, I think that that's like, super important. And thank god we are having a discussion, because if I am having a discussion, good lord, not going to be a fun one.
Kim: Would you say that environment has shaped your practice, and do you think it would be different if you grew up or lived somewhere else?
Vincent: Oh yeah. Um, so the environment that I lived in was like, I know I say this a lot, but like I was homeless. Like that's a, that's a serious fucking environment to live in. So there was lots of survival in that. I used survival sex to get by, I used a lot of manipulating of other people to get by, and I literally conned Christians into believing that they had prayed the gay out of me at one point.
Kim: It's kind of what they get though.
Vincent: Right.
Kim: Because don't do that to people.
Vincent: And that's not to say that all Christians are bad, but the Christians who want to do that are probably not-
Kim: Good.
Vincent: ...right with God. I mean, yeah, I agree. Like they are probably doing great things in the world, but they're probably not right with God if they think they should be doing that. However, I think that the environment that I grew in was one of necessity and need. And if I had maybe grown up in an environment like my brother and my sister, where, you know, they like stayed at home and they were like cared for by our parents and, or by our mom. Like, I think that my sister's approach to magic is different than mine. I couldn't speak on my sister's approach to magic, because I'm not privy to that. Like we talk about things, but I don't know what her motivations are. And it would be foolish of me to say what they are, right? But, like, I don't think that her motivations are the same as mine because her environment is different. So I think that the environment that we grow up in or that we then exist in is what shapes the magic that we're working on for sure.
Kim: How do you pull yourself out of a magical slump?
Vincent: I just had to do this! So...
Kim: Oh yeah, I saw your Instagram, your reel about that.
Vincent: So here's the thing. So like, last year in March, my son's mother passed away from colon cancer. And it was like super devastating because she was my best friend, and she's my husband's ex. And so like she was family, like 100% family. And so all of a sudden I became this like full-time dad, and like we only had our son on the weekends and the other one has grown so he didn't, like he doesn't factor into that part. Like he's 21 at the end of next week. So like, but the youngest one is 11. And so we're suddenly these full-time parents. And then we just moved out of this like cabin that we built so that our son's life wouldn't change, and all of this stuff changed, right? I had to like get my son on the bus, and I had to start like making lunches every day, and I fucked that up a couple times and...
Kim: You're allowed.
Vincent: Right? Like I think that it's okay to accidentally send your kid to school without lunch because you left it in the fridge. But probably not often. I feel like it's a good rookie mistake to make once or twice, but I don't make that mistake anymore. But I had to start learning all these things about being a Dad dad, instead of a weekend dad, and that really affected my practice and my daily way of doing things. And so I had to like suddenly adjust. And then part of that adjustment was that I just felt like I was going through the steps and I wasn't really like connecting. And so I had to adapt my practice. And that's kind of where I came into this understanding of, okay, I need boundaries, and I need like hard boundaries. And if that means right now I'm doing too many things to invest in social media, or right now I'm doing too many things to write a book, or right now I'm doing too many things to interview on a podcast, whatever, right? Like whatever it is that I needed to take out to make everything else more manageable needed to happen. And so if I want to maintain my daily practice, I know that there are things that I can't do. So right now what that looks like is, like my job is super stressful, and so right now I don't have the, I guess, mental capacity to really invest in making a reel every day because I need to mentally invest in my child. And I need to mentally invest in my husband, and I need to mentally invest in the book that I'm working on, and my magic, and so I have to take something out. And I think that that's really important. Like if you need to pull yourself back into your magic, if you feel like you have kind of let that fade into the background and this is something that you want to invest your time in, you need to like kind of examine what you don't need, or what maybe doesn't need your time investment as much, and take that out instead, to make room. Does that make sense?
Kim: Yes.
Vincent: So I mean like that's what I would do. That's what I do. So right now, I love making TikToks, but I don't have the space for that right now. So it's kind of more sporadic. And I'll get back to it when maybe the job is not as stressful or chaotic, right? Because I know that that's what's pulling me away mentally. And I would just rather kind of check out during the time that I would be making social media content. Because I'm not going to check out of my magic.
Kim: That is a good choice.
Vincent: Yeah, I think so too. I think it's a great thing, because I don't want to check out of my magic and I don't want to check out of like my family. So check out of social media. This makes sense to me.
Kim: Easy.
Vincent: Yeah, it's it's an easy choice. And that might not be the same choice for everybody. Maybe that is the thing that they need, and they need to check out of something else like watching TV, or god forbid reading books. I would never want to check out of that. But maybe that's what a person needs, you know? Like I would never judge that.
Kim: What is something you wish was discussed more in the witch community?
Vincent: I wish that... you know, in my experience, the witch community has, I think that the witch community has some clique-iness to it, and it has some shade to it, from people who seem to like in-fight sometimes. And what I would like to see discussed more in the witchcraft community is radical acceptance of all people. So what I mean by that is not getting hung up on somebody not agreeing with you, but rather just being like, okay, cool, I'm going to accept that that's where that person's at, and I don't have to interact. I don't have to engage in this. And I think that that's, I think that part of radical acceptance of all people is also to choose what you're not going to invest your time or engage in. And that this is what is not discussed enough. Because I don't think that we discuss accepting all walks of life, or accepting all people, or accepting that like this person thinks it's okay to say something like white magic, which I would never, like I just, I use air quotes when I say that because I don't like that term. But I'm also not going to berate somebody for saying it, or like publicly be like, "Don't do that!" Because like that's their path, that's their journey and I can choose not to be a part of it and just radically accept the fact that that's who they are, and I don't have to do anything about it. You know what I mean? Like, I think that that's something that's not really brought up enough. I think that more people want to discuss what they don't accept and why, as opposed to just being like, okay, well, that's that person's path, and I'm going to let them go ahead and walk it over there. It's not my place to tell you how to live your life.
Kim: Or take everything personally.
Vincent: Right. Because it's not about me. It's about them. Like this is not a me thing. This is not a me thing. This is not my circus. They are not my monkeys. Like this is, this is not me. Like, I will happily accept you as you are. If you come at me, that's a whole different thing. But, like, you know, I think that I am pretty good at keeping people from coming at me by not engaging with the things that I refuse to engage with.
Kim: Do you work with other witches?
Vincent: No. I mean, I have plenty of witch friends. I have, you know, done things with other groups of witches, but never magical. I don't like, I don't, I don't, nope, nope. (laughs) That's a big no. I don't want to, I'm not comfortable doing magic with other people. I won't even do magic with my sister. I just, my approach is not like everybody's, and I don't want somebody to make me feel as if my approach is not valid or worthy. And whether they intend to make me feel that way or not, it could happen, right? Like if I'm doing something with somebody, and they're like, "Oh no, let's do it this way," then I, how do I know that I'm not going to be like, oh my god.
Kim: You doubt yourself a little bit?
VincenT: Yeah, exactly. And so like, I, I go to this conference in Atlanta every year. It's called Mystic South. It's really cool.
Kim: I am dying to go there.
Vincent: You should. I'm speaking at it this year. And I'm going to be there the Saturday of it. But I go every year. That's actually where I pitched my first book with Lewellen. So like I try to go every year. It's like the one conference I do. But I went to it last year and Jason Manke was doing a group ritual, and I was like, I want to see what this is like, because I've never seen one. So I'm going to go and I'm going to be a part of it. And I was like, nothing wrong with the group ritual, nothing wrong with people running it. I was just very uncomfortable because there were so many people, and I'm sharing my energy, and I'm feeling their energy, and I just... it's not a thing I enjoy.
Kim: Me neither.
VIncent: And so I just know where my space is. And I think that that's okay. I just want to be a hermit. And I'm recently being told a lot that I need to kind of step out of being a hermit and kind of step more into finding balance.
Kim: By whom?
Vincent: By, you know, my guides or tarot cards or whatever.
Kim: Oh, okay.
VIncent: Just like just the messages I feel I receive. Like, but I also find it very uncomfortable to not be a hermit because this is super fun. I can totally sit down in front of my computer and talk with person. I don't mind like taking a moment and being an extrovert, but really deep down inside, I just, I'm an introvert who masks as an extrovert really, really well.
Kim: YES.
Vincent: so I just get drained by doing the extrovert thing too often or for too long.
Kim: Me too. MAN I relate.
Vincent: Yeah. Like that's why I go to the conference for one day, and I try to get it all in in one day, and then I can go home and like recuperate for three days. Because that's what it takes for me. Like, I don't even want to go into the office at work. I'm like, no, we, I can work at home still, right? Like, come on. And they're like, okay, Vini. I'm like, thanks.
Kim: Think about the three biggest influences in your life.
Vincent: Okay.
Kim: Actually, I just realized, maybe they were a bad influence and they were, it was a negative influence. You don't want to thank them. But if they're not negative, what are you thanking them for?
Vincent: All right, so I would thank my sister for teaching me how to love unconditionally. She's like the first person that taught me that. And it wasn't that I could be loved unconditionally, but that I could love unconditionally throughout time. And that was my sister, and maybe my brother, but definitely my sister that I learned that lesson from. And that's not to say that she's like a bad person or anything. It's just like, she's the person that I will love even if she like stabbed me and I was dying, I would still love her in that moment. You know what I mean?
Kim: No.
Vincent: (laughs) It's my sister.
Kim: (laughs) That's good. That's good you have that.
Vincent: That's how I love her.
Kim: Good.
VIncent: I would say, I would actually thank, the, like I was sexually assaulted or molested a couple different times in my life, so I would put that all into one person, I would actually thank them for me learning that I can survive trauma out of that. Not that it was worth it, because like it wasn't worth it for the lesson, but I learned that I am worth it, because of the lesson that it taught me. Does that make sense? And so I would thank them. And then my husband, for sure, because... and I gotta say my child, my children as well.
Kim: You can say your family as one.
Vincent: Yeah, well, my husband and sons have taught me so much about what it is to truly be a caregiver, and that I am not damaged from the caregivers that I had. And that it doesn't really matter where you came from, it matters what you have within you. And they taught me a lot about the caregivers that I had, because those people clearly did not have it in them. Because if I do, and I went through that, then it wasn't trauma that caused them to be that way.
Kim: Now I want to hug you.
Vincent: Aw, thanks! (laughs)
Kim: Do you have any words of wisdom for new witches?
Vincent: Yeah, keep going. For sure.Like, don't stop. Persist.
Kim: Yes!
Vincent: That would be the only word of wisdom I have. Persist. Do it.
Kim: Having answered these questions, who do you think would be entertaining and interesting to hear on the show? For me to ask to be on the show.
Vincent: So, Thorn Mooney gives an amazing interview. I don't know if you've ever spoken with her before, or listened to any of her interviews, but she is the wittiest motherfucker I have ever listened too, and I will just devour anything she's on, so. That might be because I'm kind of a fan, but also a friend, but like I think that she is an excellent person to answer these sorts of questions. And she's erudite, and just like... oh god, I can't, I, this will become about her if I keep talking. But if I had to suggest one person, I would say her for sure.
Kim: I actually did reach out, but I know she's jumping out of her own butthole busy right now.
Vincent: Yeah. (laughs)
Kim: Also I don't know if I got the right contact info, so. (both laugh) So is there anything else that I didn't ask you that you wanted to talk about ,or any questions that you had for me?
Vincent: So I feel like I definitely got my questions out when we talked about Arizona a little while ago. I can't think of any questions that I feel like I needed you to ask. No. I'm going to go with no on that one. I'm not good on the spot about asking other people questions, I hate that during like a job interview where they're like, is there anything you want to know about us or any questions? I'm like, uh, uh, uh, and then the minute it's over, I'm like, damn, I should have asked this and this and this and this. So we'll just stick with no for now. So yeah. If your listeners want to check me out, please follow me on TikTok because that platform is super important to me. While I don't post all the time, I will get back to posting regularly. I like to keep people updated on anything I'm doing, whether it's witchcraft or authory in general. Also, Instagram, anything that goes on TikTok ends up on Instagram as well. You can follow me on Twitter if you want, but it won't be very exciting. I do have a website. It is called viniwrites.com and that's v-i-n-i-w-r-i-t-e-s.com. You can check me out there. Anything new that's happening will be put up on there. I tend to put any podcasts that I'm on in there as well. Although I'm behind on that. I am speaking at Mystic South this year in Atlanta. I will be there on Saturday. But yeah, I'm speaking there. I'm also going to be headlining with my co-author of Thrifty Witchery at Florida Pagan Gathering in October. I don't know the exact dates on that either because I'm an Aries and I just kind of do whatever. Yeah, so it's the 16th of July, I think, that I'm speaking at Mystic South.
Kim: It looks like it might be the 15th.
Vincent: Oh, 15th is Saturday, you're right. So that would be the day that I'm going to be there. And if you want to come say hi. But yeah, so I am signing books on Saturday for a pride event in Charlotte, North Carolina at Curio Craft and Conjure. So, and even if this airs after that, you should definitely go visit Curio Craft and Conjure because I love them so much and I fully want people to support their shop.
Kim: So at the end I have two things, one of which you saw, and one of which I didn't tell you. The first thing that I didn't tell you is please recommend something to the listeners. It does not have to be witch related, anything at all.
Vincent: Okay, oh, like, like something for them to check out?
Kim: Yeah, something you're into right now. Like a new thing you found that you're like holy crap this is cool is the best show I've ever seen! This is my favorite snack now! Whatever.
Vincent: Oh my god yeah, no, so the show that you need to be watching on TV is Yellowjackets. It's so fucking good! Like if you're not watching it, please do. Like, I don't care how you watch it, but those actresses are phenomenal. So, that would be my recommendation. Completely not witchy, although it is a little supernatural, I guess. Okay. Maybe? Yeah.
Kim: So, the last thing is, please tell me a story that you love to tell.
Vincent: Oh, no.
Kim: Interpret that any way you want.
Vincent: (laughs) Oh no.
Kim: It doesn't have to be witchy, it can just be some hilarious thing that happened to you once that, like, when you get together with a specific set of people? (squeaking noise in background)
Vincent: So, do you hear my dog?
Kim: Yes. (laughs)
Vincent: Let me just take that away. No, let me have it. Run away. Let me steal this from you for a minute. Okay, so a story that I love.
Kim: (laughs) Thank you.
Vincent: Goodness, I don't, that's the hardest question I've ever been asked. Oh gosh.
Kim: Or it can just be a story that you've heard, like, I don't know, a folktale or whatever, that you just really like. But if you would have, like, a beer and you're around a campfire and you're telling stories to each other, like remember when? I like those.
Vincent: So I think a story that comes up a lot in my life is one that always, like every time my brother and my sister and I get together, we talk about this one very specific thing that happened to us. And it is when, when I was, when we were kids. We always tell this story with our mom, especially, because we like fully lied to her about it. But my sister and I used to like seriously fight a lot. Like, you know, like siblings do. And one day she wouldn't get out of my room. And we were living in California, in San Francisco, on Treasure Island, in a military base. And she wouldn't get out of my room and I was so angry at her that she wouldn't get out of my room that I just banged my fist on the glass. And all the glass goes out the window. Like I broke the whole fucking thing. And we're like, and we just turned to each other and like, wide eyes, like, aw shit! And she was like, no, it's cool. I got it, I got it. And so we run outside and she was like, we're gonna say that people got off the bus, and they came up to the house, and they threw rocks into the house. And I was like, okay. And she was like, but we gotta make it convincing. (Kim laughs) So we need to get this glass up and we need to put it inside the house. And I was like, oh, okay, yeah. Like I'm like nine. So like, obviously she's my moral compass, and like the smartest person I know. And I'm like, okay, yeah, like we need to do that. And then she was like, we need to find rocks, and we need to put them inside too. And I'm like, OK, yeah. So we do all this and my stepfather comes home, and we tell him what happened. And he goes, why is it all still in the room? Why didn't you clean up? And we were like, well, we we wanted to make sure that you could see it, so that you knew what happened. And he was like, you're lying. And we're like, no, why would we be lying? This really happened. And he was like, and then he just sits there and he gives us all of the information. And this is a man who was like MP, so he was military police.
Kim: Oh no! (laughs)
Vincent: And so he knew to look at all of the information he had in front of him and like decipher what was really happening. And he like gave us all this information that told him that we were lying and we were like, fuck. And so obviously we told on ourselves after that. But like every time I get together with my siblings and my mom is there, we tell this story, it always comes up. I'm never able to live it down because evidently I'm the one with like the anger issues, but really like I'm not. Like I'm, my brother is actually the most even keeled of us all.
Kim: Okay, but who came up with the story?
Vincent: Donna, my sister. It was all her. She was like, like, I mean, she is the one who was like, no, we'll, we'll like get out. Because I guess, I mean, like, she could have just been like, he did it. It was all him. But she definitely tried to like, help me cover it up. Like, I mean, like, how do you not unconditionally love somebody who would do that for you?
Kim: Yes.
Vincent: So that's my best story that I got right now.
Kim: I, I love it.
Vincent: Thanks.
Kim: Well, thank you so much for being on the show.
Vincent: Oh, it was such a pleasure, this was like one of my favorite interviews I've done yet.
Kim: YAY! Okay, then I will see you on the internet! Bye.
Kim: So Vini.
Vincent: Yeah.
Kim: Welcome to Patreon.
Vincent: Oh, yay! (fades out) (fades in) As I get to the top, the wind picks up, and the rain starts pouring, and there's lightning everywhere, and I'm on the top of this, like, this parking garage, and I just start talking to Hecate. And every time I speak, lightning responds, and thunder responds almost, and I'm like, oh, this is, this is a thing right now. I am like, in communion with this deity and then the rain stops and I go to leave and I realize that the level I'm on is called level H and I just had this whole like moment where I dedicated myself to this deity for the rest of my life. (fades out)
Kim: To hear more of the Patreon episode head over to patreon.com/cleverkimscurios for a free seven day trial. The Monthly Magic tier will give you access to the Monthly Magic Marco Polo group, the private Patreon Facebook group, access to the written monthly spells, and more. There are also tiers with just digital content, or you can get spell boxes, intentional handcrafted jewelry that I make especially for witches, and there's even a crystal tier. Check it out at patreon.com/cleverkimscurios. Thanks for listening to this episode of Your Average Witch. You can find us all around the internet on Instagram at Your Average Witch Podcast, Facebook at Facebook.com/groups/Hive House, at YourAverageWitch.com, and at your favorite podcast service. Want to help the podcast grow? Leave a review. You can review us on Amazon and Apple Podcasts and now you can rate us on Spotify. If you'd like to recommend someone for the podcast, like to be on it yourself, or if you'd like to advertise on the podcast, send an email to youraveragewitchpodcast at gmail.com. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next Tuesday.